"Courage is the New Currency": Skye Perryman and Democracy Forward

REV. PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Welcome Skye Perryman to The State of Belief. I am always so glad to see you.

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SKYE PERRYMAN, GUEST:

It’s always good to see you.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, so this is very funny. We just heard you say, “I'm sorry, I'm dealing with the president right now”, as you were trying to respond to this craziness of SNAP and everything that's happened. Let's start there - because we could talk about a million things, but I do want to just say, what you are doing at Democracy Forward and all the lawyers who work with you and the surrounding people who are working with you are literally saving lives.

And so let's talk about SNAP. Set the stage: we have a shut down government. They were using SNAP as some sort of pawn. And you said, you can't do that. So give us the background a little bit, and then tell us how that happened and why it was so important for you and for Democracy Forward to be involved.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

Well, this is really incredible, and it's just incredible about the resilience of people. We're in this dark moment, but yet what we see in our work is the resilience of these communities every day. And so as part of the shutdown, the President of the United States has, really, sought to weaponize the shutdown against people. And he's done this by trying - he tried, by the way, to fire a lot of our public servants from the federal government during the shutdown; we sued and have a court order that has blocked those firings. And that's in place and has remained in place.

And then he has issued a range of very politicized statements suggesting - truly, and in fact doing - taking people's basic needs: things that the government provides for families and communities that are in need, including nutritional assistance through the SNAP program, and weaponizing it during the shutdown and saying, you're not going to get your food because of the shutdown.

Now, let's set aside the fact - and I say this in a nonpartisan way - but let's set aside the fact that the branches of government are controlled by the president's own party. I mean, he could actually get the government back up and moving, as could his allies in Congress, but let's set that aside. It's just really unbelievable. And so the administration, essentially, was not intending and has not intended to pay benefits to people - 42 million Americans, including millions of children, senior citizens, veterans, and working people; these are people that work every day and still do not have the money they need to be able to support themselves or their families - was going to deprive them of nutritional assistance. It is totally unlawful what they did. Totally unlawful.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And the money is there, by the way. This isn't something where we have to go searching for the money. The money is there.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

The money is there. It's totally unlawful. Congress actually contemplated that there might be times where the government shuts down and people still need this essential nutrition. And so it's an entitlement. That's what we call it in legal-speak, the court found that. And so we started talking with communities who were really concerned and they leaned in. And on behalf of one of the broadest coalitions that we have ever built - one of the broadest coalitions I think you'll ever see in a case like this - with the lead plaintiff as the Rhode Island Council of Churches, which is, of course, one of the reasons I thought of Interfaith Alliance as we've been working on this. Our team, along with our co-counsel in Rhode Island, built a really large case and went to court and secured a court order last week that said the benefits have to be paid expeditiously. And so that is what we are fighting every day, now, to ensure that that happens for people in this country.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I just love the fact that this was Rhode Island Council of Churches - which, by the way, is not a juggernaut or anything. These are just people who are out there trying to keep people fed and make sure that their communities are not suffering - and doing it out of a religious commitment, which is being thwarted by the administration, who, meanwhile, are kind of claiming this mantle of religion, as you and I know.

And so congratulations. I mean, it was one of those things where you're like, oh, you know, this is so valuable. And yet they're still fighting it. I mean, they're still like, no, we don't, somehow… Let's just say if you're on the side that's trying to take food from children, you're probably not on the right side. But they're still trying to fight it, right?

SKYE PERRYMAN:

It's been unbelievable. I mean, they claimed for days they did not have the legal authority to pay the SNAP funds - which they, by the way, have done themselves. This administration has done this before. So they claimed at first they didn't have the legal authority. Now, I'll tell you, as somebody that has to take the administration, has a team that has to take the administration to court a lot, they're often not concerned about what their legal authority is; but they seem very concerned about what their legal authority was here.

And then the courts not only said, not only do you have the authority, you actually have to do this. And then even after the court said that, they came out and said, via social media - because this is where all the announcements come - well, we need to really get the court's clarity about if we can do this.

The court was unequivocal. These courts are unequivocal that they have to do this. And then the president came out and said, it would be my honor to do it. He said that over the weekend. And then yesterday, the government filed with the court a document that suggests that they are choosing to only partially fund, not to fully fund. So that is squarely on this president. I mean, the lives and well-being of millions, 42 million people in this country, including our veterans, people who have served us, including children, families.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

By the way, Democrats and Republicans and Independents alike…

SKYE PERRYMAN:

Everybody. This is everybody. Rural areas, big cities, small towns, the whole thing… And that there would be some delays. And so we went back into court today in order to ensure that we can make sure people get the benefits that they need.

And at the same time, the president then takes to social media today, which is what I was referencing when we started talking, and basically now is just overtly saying that he is making the access to food a political tool because of a spat that he's having with Democrats in Congress. So it is really morally bankrupt. It is unlawful. And the courts have seen it that way as well.

And so we're just so grateful that these communities - this is a nationwide, I mean, we have the Service Employees International Union with workers that rely on this. We've got churches. We have grocery stores and small businesses and grocers and grocery retailers, many food pantries. And then the National Council of Nonprofits, whose members are trying to help keep people fed. I mean, we've got a large coalition, cities across the country, that are not going to rest until we are able to ensure that this government does what it is supposed to do by people.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

You know, sometimes it all comes down - and I say this to you as a fellow Christian - you go back to Matthew 25, you know, I was hungry, you gave me food… Or you didn't. This is the basic…

SKYE PERRYMAN:

“Whatever you do…”

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

“…You did it to me.” And then, you know, I can't even get into Speaker Johnsonm who's just like, you ask him any questions – “I don't know about that.” It’s just really incredible.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

And you're the interfaith expert, but I'm not aware of any major faith tradition or any major secular ethical tradition... I'm unaware of any tradition that would think that it is acceptable to deprive people of food and nourishment, especially children and older people. And all the ones I'm aware of actually say that you have an obligation…

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's essential. I thought you made a really important point in passing: this is an administration that really does not has a very selective view on when it's appropriate to wonder if you have the legal right to do something. They generally do stuff that they want to do and then see how many things they can break and how long they can break them for before you or one of the other great legal workers can rein them back in, which you've been incredible about. But I want to get into just a little bit and  there's so much to talk to you about, but it's just so important to recognize this is the lawlessness or the disregard of the understanding of the…

SKYE PERRYMAN:

I think this is really a callous disregard. I did an interview yesterday and they showed me the pictures of the Gatsby party at Mar-a-Lago. And so, you know, it's the end of the month. Friday was the end of the month, and people are at the end of their month and they're trying to figure out how they're going to make it through the next month and what their kids need, what their families need. And you have a president that is taunting the American people saying, I'm going to deprive you of food, politicizing their lives; and then at the same time hosting this Roaring Twenties Gatsby party at Mar-a-Lago. And again, you are the minister and the interfaith leader here, but it really does look like a scene out of the types of stories about injustice that we read about in sacred text. I mean, it was just right there.

But the thing to keep in mind, really, is that with all of that injustice and all of the pain that it is causing people, that what we're seeing is communities say: I am my neighbor's keeper, and we're going to step in and we're going to use all the tools we have to ensure that people get what they need. And it's been really tremendous. I mean, we're doing that in the courts, but you're seeing on social media, community food banks, community neighbor associations, retailers, right? You're seeing people really try to do anything they can to alleviate this, but it should not happen anywhere, and it certainly shouldn't happen in the United States of America.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, the need is such that you can't just say, oh, church, you go do it.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

No, not even the states, not even very wealthy states. And the states have another lawsuit that they filed and won a court order on, as well. Not even very wealthy states have the funds needed to be able to meet this need. That is why we have the federal government. That is why we have this program. And it's why it's just unbelievable that this is what the administration would do.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

You wear a lot of hats, but you're very visible as the the president and CEO of Democracy Forward. But because we we've known each other for a long time, I know how deep your love of country is, and also your your faith is. And I say all that because one of the things that we just keep on saying is that the other side, the opponents do not have any sort of monopoly on religion. Religion is showing up in lots of different ways. And I'm just curious from your vantage point, from the legal vantage point, how are you seeing religion play out right now? And I'm always asking you, are there other things we can be doing? But I'm seeing people want to step forward.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

Well, we are really seeing spiritual and religious communities across this country step forward. We are representing, as you know, because you all have been so supportive of our efforts at Interfaith Alliance, but we are representing a range of houses of worship in two different federal court actions, one of which we're still waiting on a court order for, another which we've secured the first court order in the country to prevent ICE from entering houses of worship. And by the way, not just because those types of operations prevent people that may be on ICE's list, which, by the way, could be all of us - because right now they're detaining American citizens. But not only because it prevents whoever ICE may wish to curtail from engaging in communal worship or in communal events such as weddings or funerals, but also because it inhibits the ability of all people to engage in this communal worship when you have these things that are disruptive in your religious community.

And so this is an incredibly important case. We've got amazing colleagues working on it here. You at Interfaith Alliance have been working with us on really forcing transparency. I mean, to quote someone that's near and dear to your heart, Justice Brandeis, who says sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. You and Interfaith Alliance have filed a case to force sunlight when the government has been withholding information about some of the really problematic and polarizing claims it's making, such as that there is anti-Christian bias in this country.

I mean, no one wants there to be any type of religious bias in this country, but they won't back up their claims - and they're using that as a specter, we believe, to violate people's rights. And so you've been on the front lines of that fight with us. The protest that we've seen, the peaceful mobilization of people. I was just reflecting on this because we were in Memphis, where we're representing people in Memphis against the National Guard deployment there. And of course, we know that Dr. King spent a lot of time in Memphis, gave his last speech, was murdered in Memphis when he was supporting the sanitation worker strike, and really talked about in his writings, including in the mountaintop speech in Memphis, the importance of faith communities peacefully demonstrating and understanding the ancestors that they stand on the shoulders of.

And we're seeing that show up in the No Kings protest, which I know you all have been such a part at Interfaith Alliance. We've been a proud supporter at Democracy Forward, but also just in broader ways. I mean, when the administration is seeking to crush dissent or to crush anybody that has a viewpoint that doesn't agree with them, we've seen that it is the churches, the faith leaders, the communities of faith that are stepping forward. And then, of course, in the SNAP case, I just think it's so powerful that the Rhode Island Council of Churches was right there to say, not in our community. And there's a range of other organizations that are represented that have faith-based backgrounds, too.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

One of the ways you operate is, like, we are not going to stop. And we have a vision for America that goes beyond what is happening now, that we have a vision for the future. And the great line you said to me, I think it was the week that the inauguration happened in January, you said, “There's no way out of this, but through it.”

SKYE PERRYMAN:

That's my line.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It is your line. It's your line. And it was both a ton of bricks that fell on me, but also gave me a way to see how I could take those bricks off and imagine a way forward - because you just have to. There is no magic here. There's no wishful thinking. And yet there is hope, through the practice of all of us using the levers that we have. And you have the levers of the law. We have the levers of the faith communities. There are wonderful people working in the arts and working in other civic spaces. So when we think about the going through it, do you have a sense of where we are in this tunnel?

SKYE PERRYMAN:

I think we have a long way to go. I think we have a long way to go. And I think we've always had a long way to go. And one of the lessons of this moment, as people are feeling so desperate and they're focusing on how urgent this moment is, we know the work of justice has always been urgent and much of what people are experiencing right now and in large amounts and in sort of aggregate populations across the country, worrying if the government is going to show up as they promised and they're supposed to do on your food benefits, worrying if you're going to be snatched up even though you're doing nothing wrong on the street - that is the experience, the lived experience that we know that many people in this country have had and were having, and that is not new.

Now, what is new is this weaponization of every element of our federal government and of many state governments against the very people that it is seeking to serve, when this country should be on a path of how do we overcome this injustice and make it better, make things more perfect. We're now having to hold on for dear life to even hard-earned gains, right? And think about building. So I think we've got a long way to go, but muscle memory is really important. And we're building this pro-democracy muscle right now. So every time the president operates in some chaotic fashion, It's harming people, and I'm not going to minimize that. But every time, it is working that muscle.

It is finding places in the country where people are, that is going to be the thing that they're going to step up for. And once you start stepping up, you're not going to step back, right? And so I think that we have a long way to go, but what we've seen over the course of the last 10 months with this administration is that people are stepping up. As powerful institutions have been confused and stepping back, people are stepping forward. And the more we do that, the more we do that practice, it makes us stronger, bigger, more vibrant. That's what you saw on the streets during the No Kings. Largest mobilization in U.S. history by some accounts, you know, millions and millions of people. And that's what we see in these big coalitions that you're seeing show up in court, right?

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love it. So one thing that you have expertise that few have is is a vantage point on the Supreme Court. And you know me, I grew up venerating the Supreme Court, thinking that lots of good could happen from the Supreme Court. Right now, I feel like I should hold up a sign saying, I'm both mad and disappointed.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

Polling would suggest that the majority of the country agrees with you, Paul.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I mean, it's like I have no faith, in the end, and I hate to do that because I don't want to undermine institutions further. But I'm just very concerned. How do you understand, you who deal with the law all the time? Ultimately, big cases are going to go to the Supreme Court. And I'm just wondering how do you understand an approach to the Supreme Court right now - not only in regards to religion, but I would love if you would talk about religion as well - but more generally, to start with, how are you approaching the Supreme Court right now from your vantage point as a leading legal organization?

SKYE PERRYMAN:

I think we believe, at Democracy Forward, and we've said this before, that it is the people that will take us out of where we are. And it is going to be the people, not our institutions or anything. There's not going to be a silver bullet court case that… We're very good, but there's not going to be a silver bullet court case that we're going to be able to win that's going to save the country or save the American people. It is the people, but the ability of people to go to court. and to do what we're doing here with SNAP and to use the court system all the way through is a huge lever of power that people have.

When we think about the Supreme Court, I would say a few things. One is to make sure we remember our history, which is that the Supreme Court has not been an institution in the United States that has consistently delivered justice for all people and for a true democracy for all people. It did do that in some landmark cases and in a few decades in the 20th century. It has done that at various points of the 21st century. But this is not an institution that has always gotten it right. It is not an institution that people have looked at as the thing that was going to save them, whether you're talking about Dred Scott decision or Plessy decision or Dobbs, more contemporaneously, or a number of other decisions. So that is one thing to just remember. We need to have some humility about that.

But yet legal work and the ability of people to go into court and to demand that their government answer and to say publicly, in a court of law, what they're doing, and why they're doing it, and what stories come through those cases, and what people can do in the wake of injustice that might come down, that has changed the country, and that has changed the world. And then sometimes cases change the world. So what I ask - though our approach to the Supreme Court, of course, is we want to win in every court that we're in, and we do our work in order to try to win in every court we're in - but we also want to make sure that people and communities are using the tools they have, including the ability to initiate litigation against their government in this time, and not sitting back and trying to say, well, I'm not sure if this one is going to have this, you know, and not making a bunch of excuses for why they don't show up.

On religion, in particular, and on the First Amendment, more generally. I think the administration is having trouble with all of the courts right now. They're so blatantly violating the First Amendment. We have had Trump appointed judges rule for us on First Amendment and other grounds. We have had judges appointed by Republicans, judges appointed by Democrats. So we're seeing that this is something that is really breaking through as it should. It's our First Amendment. And so I would just say we need to have our eyes wide open. I'm not suggesting that we should be expecting from the court things that maybe the court hasn't led us to believe that it will deliver. But at the same time, I think that this administration's complete disregard for the First Amendment is something that I believe will resonate with some members of the court and hopefully with more than five or more members of the court. And that includes in places like freedom of religion.

It also includes in places like freedom of speech and assembly. And so that's one of the ways we're looking at a lot of our cases right now. And by the way, in many of those cases, you don't see the Trump administration taking those cases up to the Supreme Court quickly. Multiple law firms sued the administration for violations of the First Amendment. Those cases have been sitting down in the lower courts, and there hasn't been a real desire among this administration to take those up quickly.

The same with a number of our cases where we have won court orders to prevent retaliation against people. Our houses of worship case, they are appealing, which is sort of remarkable in and of itself, that they would be appealing to try to allow ICE to disturb communal worship, but they're not doing it quickly. And so I think that there's a lot of good fight left in these cases. And when we look at the court, we don't want to be deterred by the court, but we also, obviously, want to present the best case we can to the court. And don't believe that the die is cast and that there's no hope at the Supreme Court.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I really appreciate that. And I do think it just feels like, I don't know, I'm not going to opine because I don't know enough to opine, but it just feels like some of the members of the court are just pure ideologues, but others may not want their legacy to just give- Well, that's what I say.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

History has its eyes on every single one of us in this moment, and it has its eyes on this court. And if this is the court that enables a complete backslide of American democracy and fast tracks us further than we already are into an autocratic state. History remembers that about this court. And I think it will be very, very problematic for the court over time, because in the end, the people will prevail. And if they haven't prevailed yet, it's not the end. And so I think that I have to hope that there are some on the court that are really thinking about that legacy; and then, of course, thinking about the obligations that they have under our Constitution, which is to protect people. We're not a monarchy, right? We're a country of laws, and we really rely on the courts to make that so.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love that. Okay. I can't let you go before you just say a word about courage, because you and I have seen it. And, you know, when you talk about the people showing up and the people really rising to this moment, we talk about courage and you have some great language around that. And I've been riffing on that, too. It'll preach, as they say. So, so dear, talk to me about the role of courage in your own life, too, because everything that you do, I don't think people realize how much it takes to get up in the world as Skye Perryman, who is looking down at her phone saying, oh, the president is now coming. This is the day-to-day for Skye Perryman. So courage is not something to imagine reaching for. It's a moment-by-moment practice, and we'd love to hear your thoughts about how it's functioning.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

And our team here at Democracy Forward, I just want to say. I mean, our team at Democracy Forward, they are really some of the most courageous people, every single one of them, doing this work every day against long odds. And so we're trying, as an organization, to model that courage. Every single one of us are.

So, you've heard me say it, but I think courage is the new currency. It is the thing that will take us from this place to where we need to go. The people are going to be that, right? But it is going to take courage to do that. And people think that courage is the absence of fear. And we know that's not the case. Courage actually requires fear. And it is the choice that we all make. And we can all make this choice individually in our lives. It's a choice that we make every day in the face of fear.

I will say something a bit more personal than I probably do in other settings because this is Interfaith Alliance and you've asked me to do this, but in the faith tradition, of course, I'm a practicing Christian, a Baptist. And in the faith tradition that I grew up in, and I think in most major faith traditions, “fear not” is, really, the first word that the angels ever say, whether they're saying it to Moses, whether they're saying it to Jesus or to Paul. Or, you know, I said recently in a speech, to Dr. King. I was thinking about the letter at the Birmingham Jail and the many places where we know that people have been inspired to not be afraid.

And there's no shame in feeling that fear, but what we want to do is to transform that fear into a choice that we make, which is to operate with courage. You've really modeled that for me and your colleagues at Interfaith Alliance. But our team here at Democracy Forward, I will say, I think that we are most proud of that. If there's one thing that we hear from people every day, it's people writing and saying, thank you for the courage. Because right now we're in a moment where there are great costs to things that should not have cost to them in a democracy. But speaking out, being willing to use the power that we have under the Constitution, which is a power that every single American has, that's requiring a level of courage right now. But people are doing it, and it's so inspiring.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

“Fear not”, I've been thinking about that passage a lot, and it makes me think about people like Dorothy Day, people like Sojourner Truth, they talked about fear a lot. And they also talked about what it meant to be in communities where they would sing, where they would dance, where joy helped get through the fear. So if we have, that's another message for this moment.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

Well, we're trying to do that. As we say, we're not going to let somebody take the joy away, but we're going to build community together, and that creates the conditions for courage.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Skye Perryman is the very effective president and CEO of Democracy Forward, using legal action and advocacy to hold government and powerful interests accountable, protecting democracy and advancing policies that serve the public good. She is also serving up big dishes of courage and joy in every interaction.

Skye, thank you so much for being with us on The State of Belief and all the work you're doing for the American people.

SKYE PERRYMAN:

Thank you.