How to End Christian Nationalism with Amanda Tyler

REV. PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Amanda Tyler is an attorney, activist and author who leads the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty as executive director. She's also lead organizer of Christians Against Christian Nationalism. So Amanda was definitely among the first to recognize what a threat to democracy and religious pluralism Christian Nationalism has become. And now she has laid out an action plan in the form of a new book titled, How to End Christian Nationalism, and she's back on The State of Belief this week to talk about it.

Amanda, welcome back and congratulations on the book.

AMANDA TYLER, GUEST:

Oh, thanks so much, Paul. It's great to be back on the show.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, if there was ever need for a book, and specifically this book, it is right now. So we are going to get into this book, we're going to get into the reality. But I just want to start with what I think we should all be starting with, which is, how are you? And my declaration of gratitude for you, for all the work that you do, and my commitment to you as a fellow human being, as a fellow American, in the days and months to come. So how are you, Amanda?

AMANDA TYLER:

Well, thank you, Paul. I, as I'm sure a lot of people, are just processing a lot of different emotions in this moment. I just have a deep sense of grief and sadness for our country, what happened on November 5^th, and then also a real sense of worry about what the ramifications will be for our neighbors - our neighbors who are most vulnerable to the discrimination, the hate, the violence that I fear could be coming for our country.

And then on the other side, I am feeling a sense of hopeful resilience, even in the face of what we know we're facing. And that's because I do think that in our hardest moments, in our darkest times, that there is a real opportunity for us to join together across our lines of difference to make a meaningful difference in the lives of our neighbors.

We should not be pushed to the limit in order to see and to bring our best to the moment. But that's where we are, and I sincerely believe that the American people will respond, because I don't believe that a majority of Americans, in voting for Trump, were endorsing the hateful rhetoric, the divisive language. Some people were, but not the majority; and I think that, as things come to pass, we'll have opportunities in our communities to push back and to live into the promises of this pluralistic democracy - promises that have never been fully realized.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love that phrase, “hopeful resilience,” because I think that is a really important recognition of a strategy in this moment, and also a determination - which those of us who are privileged to lead groups like BJC and Interfaith Alliance and so many of our other colleagues and partners, that's what we have to lean into - but it means some really strategic thinking, and what is next.

Maybe it would be helpful for you, with your lens, to talk about how you saw Christian Nationalism show up in the election. In some ways it's a way to identify it and to define it for our listeners, who have heard a lot about Christian Nationalism, but it's not a static thing and it doesn't behave this way every time with every single person. So I'm curious, when you were doing kind of an analysis of the election, what did you see as far as the impact of Christian Nationalism on Election Day?

AMANDA TYLER:

So, definitions first, I always think that's a good place to start. The way I understand Christian Nationalism is it's a political ideology and a cultural framework that tries to merge American and Christian identities, suggesting that to be a real American, one has to be a Christian - and not just any kind of Christian, but a Christian who holds certain fundamentalist religious beliefs that are in line with conservative political priorities. And Christian Nationalism overlaps significantly with White supremacy, with a narrative that the only people who truly belong in this country are the people who held power at the beginning of the country - and that is White Protestant Christian men who own property. Everyone else is effectively a second-class citizen in the eyes of White Christian Nationalism.

And so I think what's been helpful for me to understand is it's both this deeply-seated, longstanding political ideology and cultural framework, but it's also a well-funded political movement that's gaining power and gaining steam. And I viewed this election in many ways as the big power play of this movement: of trying to seize power, to hold on to power at any cost, and to have this push towards authoritarian theocracy. So in the course of the campaign, I saw at various moments the movement of Christian Nationalism trying to seize on the language of Christian Nationalism in order to galvanize a particular part of the electorate. And so that language was this fearmongering. We saw it even in the political rallies leading up, where Jesus is Lord became almost like a campaign slogan. Which - I don't know about you, Paul, I just found that so gross.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, “gross,” it's not a theological term, but I actually think that maybe in this case it is. That's a good way to put it.

AMANDA TYLER:

Well, or idolatry, heresy, you know, all of those more fancy theological terms. But the emotion was just this emotion of disgust, because it did take a central confession of our religious faith and turn it into a political slogan. And in doing so, turning everything that's in that statement on its head. Because by confessing Jesus as Lord, we're saying that our ultimate faith is in the divine and not in earthly power. And so to use it in order to try to elect earthly power - and earthly power that stands, I believe, against everything that Jesus stood for, was gross in the theological term.

But what we also saw, I think, just this us-versus-them mentality, and I'll just take one piece that I think was a motivating factor for many voters, and that was fear of immigrants and distrust. Distrust in our immigration system, which, on a public policy grounds, I think that we're right to interrogate and know that the immigration system is not working for most Americans and most immigrants, migrants, and refugees. It's a broken system that requires serious policy consideration.

But to answer that serious policy concern with a divisive, violent, and hateful rhetoric of a mass deportation seizes on this ideology of Christian Nationalism. It seizes on this idea that only certain people belong here, and that we can dehumanize our neighbors who don't fit into that narrow frame of understanding and do everything we can to push them out of the country. That's the language I think that, unfortunately, was really seized upon and used to motivate voters, particularly in the closing days of the campaign.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And this is where it really becomes frustrating, because it's abiblical, if that's a phrase. It goes directly against all biblical mandates around the immigrant and the stranger, and so it's clearly much more, as you say, a political ideology, one that we have unfortunately heard before, about poisoning the bloodstream - these are not new tropes, they have been used before, and we're now going to begin to see what this all looks like.

You're an attorney, and you know that part of the reality that's about to happen is that the religious liberty of, for instance, Catholic Charities and Catholic churches that have been very supportive of immigrants is about to be tested. These are the same folks who are very, like, rah-rah religious liberty when it comes to not being able to bake a cake for someone, or any other manifestation of that. But when it comes to the Church's mandate to live out its protection of the immigrant and things like that, that will be a very interesting court case. I mean, I'm out in front of my skis right now, but I just do imagine we're about to see some really frightening stuff go down that was promised and now the president-elect is already saying he's going to deliver on.

So, that was really helpful and I think it clarified: this is exactly where we are, and I think you articulated very well how Christian Nationalism functioned, almost as an undercurrent - but a current in the sense that it electrified a certain population of voters to really get out there. And I think the candidate Trump really was leaning into this. I'm the one who will protect you, I'm the one who will save you. Leaning into God, “And God made Trump,” and all of these things that have been really incredible. Themes that might seem strange to the listeners, here - although we've talked a lot about that on this podcast, but really, if your diet is Christian media and if your diet is the kind of churches aligned with all of this, you're hearing that all the time. And so none of this feels surprising, it's just the manifestation of what is being put out there - and so your motivation to go vote was very strong, also, because of this. You know, the spiritual warfare of it all, which we can get into. All of that is the reality into which we are stepping.

I think when you wrote this book, it wasn't clear what the future would hold. You knew that Christian Nationalism was a threat to American democracy and the way we want to see American democracy evolve. Now it feels like the stakes are even higher for your book, How to End Christian Nationalism. And so why don't we talk a little bit about the book itself and what you try to do in the book, so that our listeners can really understand the resource that's available to them?

AMANDA TYLER:

So the book comes out of the past, really, five years of my life of leading both BJC and the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign, of both learning about the topic, deeply, myself, and then writing and speaking on it. And realizing that the number one question that I get around the country and in Zoom rooms and in all kinds of different meetings from all different groups is: What can I do?

People are convinced of this as being a problem - for Christian audiences in particular. They feel a religious obligation to push back against Christian nationalism as a gross distortion of our faith, and they want to get more involved. But the topic can feel so huge, so intractable, sometimes so amorphous, that it's hard to know where to take the first step. And so this book How to End Christian Nationalism, is my offering into that space. A book that's written in a very accessible way that both diagnoses the problem, but also gives actionable ideas on how to get involved.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I'm not such a smarty pants, but you are really a smarty pants; and I think sometimes we speak in a language that is really, meant to kind of influence a certain thin slice. But this is really, it's incredibly intelligent, but it's really meant for everybody.

And what I really also appreciated about it was that you brought yourself into it. This wasn't something that you were like oh, you know, you all should do this and this and this, and I don't know why you haven't done it yet; you really get into your own background. Talk about that for a little bit, because this is not something that's totally out there to you. This is something that you know something about, and you bring that. And I just love that, because it really feels like… It's not at all a memoir, but what it does is it feels like you are a real person and almost like a colleague on the way, and it really reads that way.

AMANDA TYLER:

Well, I think it's so important when we think about ending Christian Nationalism, about not thinking it's just a problem that impacts some other people and not ourselves. And so I tried to place myself and my own internal exploration and my own transformation - continuing transformation - over my life and even while writing this book into the book itself.

So one way that I do that is I always talk about Christian Nationalism as an ideology and a framework and not as a diagnosis, not as an immutable characteristic, and that it impacts us all. And so my own background, I grew up in Baptist churches in Austin, Texas. Religion has always been a central part of my life, and my religious practice, which included going to church up to three times a week in my Baptist church growing up. But also this deep interest in and pursuit of a life of law and politics and government, and kind of seeing those things go along a dual track.

But I recognize my own position as a White Christian, a White Baptist Christian in Texas, a very much majority status; and taking a lot of the softer forms of Christian Nationalism, the Christian supremacy, the Christian primacy, for granted. And understanding, especially through exploration of racial justice and learning and relationship and conversation and inner exploration, understanding a lot of the latent White supremacy and even my own ways of thinking about American history, my own ways that I've glorified the founders at different parts of my life.

You know, as a constitutional lawyer, I had deep respect for the Constitution, and I still do. But I also have learned that the way that our Constitution is put together has never fully protected religious freedom for all people. And understanding that, in many ways, White Christians have been more a part of the problem than a solution.

And so how do we - and this is part of the journey of the book - how do we, as White Christians, really work alongside and not out in front of people of other faiths, as you all do at Interfaith Alliance, and also people of color, people from all backgrounds, non-religious? How do we really work in a more egalitarian way, and not in a White supremacist way, as we continue to do the work?

So I tried to include in the book some of my own awakenings throughout my life; but also, even in writing the book, and where some of my assumptions have been challenged. And I hope, in a gentle way, encourage the reader to engage their own assumptions and to be open to transformation, because I think that is so key. If we think this is just a problem with some narrow piece of American public and that it's not us, then I think we're really missing a big piece of what it's going to take to dismantle and end Christian Nationalism.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Thank you for that. And so give us a - I don't know, top three greatest hits. You wrote this to answer the question: What can I do? And I think right now, everybody is looking around. And I don't want to frame this book completely in reaction to the election, because it wasn't meant for that and that's not the way we're going to use it. But what are the first three things that you would like listeners to take away from the book? Obviously the first thing is to buy the book, because everybody should buy this book. But also, what are some action items or reflection items that you think listeners would benefit from, if they really want to start being the beginning to the end of Christian Nationalism?

AMANDA TYLER:

So if I said, like, top three, I really think about ending Christian Nationalism in three buckets, I'm going to cheat a little bit.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Oh, you're very, yes, lawyer. Lawyer!

AMANDA TYLER:

Exactly, exactly. I'm going to take your frame and I'm going to make it work.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I recognize this game.

AMANDA TYLER:

So I think about, if we're really ending Christian Nationalism, three parallel, overlapping, simultaneous areas of action. One is building and growing our awareness around the problem; and, yes, reading the book - and there are a lot of pieces in the book where I bring in other experts so we can deepen our understanding of the topic, see all of its manifestations. So, reading books; watching - there's some excellent documentaries out right now, including God and Country and Bad Faith are two that come to mind; podcast series, all of these ways of learning, including a lot of resources we have at christiansagainstchristian nationalism.org, lots of places for deepening our awareness.

Second is mobilizing for advocacy and action, and I talk in the book about taking our place in the public square, about ways that we can bring our identities -s all of our identities, including, if we have them, our religious identity - into our public advocacy.

And then I have a particular case study on the importance of advocating for religious freedom in our public schools, because those are places, really, that, around the country, in all communities, we've seen, whether it be book bans or content bans or ways of really pushing government-sponsored religion in public schools, that we've seen a lot of attacks on religious freedom in the public school space. We, of course, have also seen these awful attacks on transgender youth, and that those are happening, also, in the public square, public school situation. So, you know, I think, really, it's very important in this moment that we speak out, that we make our voice known to our elected officials - and not just to our members of Congress, but to our state legislatures, to our school board members, state board of education members, wherever we're seeing the problem.

And then third is organizing for change. And I think this, of all the pieces, when I think about what is it going to be like to live through a second Trump administration, I think organizing for change on the ground, in local communities, is going to be so vital to resistance against authoritarian theocracy. I used the example earlier of the mass deportation policy. That's going to hit communities all over this country. And how are we as communities going to respond?

I very much think, in some ways, that we are in 1933, Germany. We have just elected a leader who has clear authoritarian aims and tendencies, and while we still have the legal levers of our democracy, we need to push every single one of them - and that's going to mean being much more actively involved in what I call direct democracy. So not just voting, not just making our views known to our elected officials, but actually getting more actively involved in our communities, listening well to the needs that are present, and working across lines of difference with our neighbors in order to fashion a society that really works for all of us.

And so I give some examples of faith-based organizing in the book. Of course, I think one of the most well-known was the Civil Rights Movement, where we saw faith communities really leading the way in organizing against tyranny, against segregation, against authoritarianism, and working towards the Beloved Community. And this is another moment. This is the Civil Rights Movement of our time. This is the time that we need to be more actively engaged in working with our neighbors for democracy.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I think that's very clear, and it's at different levels. I really appreciate that. But I also want to get into the specifics of Christians Against Christian Nationalism. You know, I am also a Baptist. I am in that tradition, but I lead an interfaith organization and feel very identified with that movement. And I think we are very aligned with Christians Against Christian Nationalism, but there are different obligations of Christians Against Christian Nationalism.

What I love about the organization that is with BJC is that it takes seriously the internal work among Christians to show up. And I just was wondering if you want to say a few words about Christians Against Christian Nationalism - in light of your book, but then also what the particular role of Christians, and maybe even White Christians, might be in this moment as we think about 1933, and then as we turn to other models. You know, we have the Civil Rights Movement here, we have the resistance church in Germany and Dietrich Bonhoeffer and others. I'm just curious how you're thinking in terms of the specific roles of Christians and White Christians right now.

AMANDA TYLER:

It was really our interfaith colleagues, our colleagues from other faith traditions, who pushed us to name the campaign Christians Against Christian Nationalism, and to center our efforts on Christians, and particularly White Christians at the time, the people who had really done the most to perpetuate the ideology - sometimes through action, even more often through inaction and complacency.

And so it was an effort to really highlight the need for Christians to take a leading role in speaking out and normalizing speaking out against Christian Nationalism, and part of it is because Christians are in the best place to explain clearly and forcefully how Christian Nationalism bears no resemblance to the teachings of Jesus, how it's a gross distortion of our faith. Jesus, who was always on the side of the marginalized and oppressed, and how Christian Nationalism takes the central message of Christianity, which is love - love for God, through love for neighbor, and turns it into a false idol of power. And so I think it's really incumbent on Christians to take a leading role in speaking out against Christian Nationalism, because one of the biggest attacks that we receive is somehow saying that we are against Christians if we're fighting Christian Nationalism.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

You and I both speak out there, and one of the first questions: Why are you so anti-Christian? I'm like, what?! How does that compute with you? How do you feel that I am anti-Christian after what I just said? It's so frustrating, and one of the things that drives me so nuts is if there's anyone who's turning people away from the gospel right now, and I just have my pastor hat on, really turning people and just saying, ich, ich, Jesus, ich - it's this kind of ideology that is masquerading as Jesus. And then people are like, oh well, I want nothing to do with that.

Look at all the young people who are turning away from the Church because they think the Church is de facto anti-LGBTQ, you know what I mean? Because these people are painting it that way. Or anti-immigrant or anti-women. All this kind of garbage. And this gospel, this false gospel, is turning people away from ever even entering into the idea. And you and I both know. How many times have you heard, “I've never heard a Christian talk like that” from a young person? All the time! And I'm like, damn, that is so sad, that you have never encountered someone who speaks the language that many of us speak. We're not this way weird fringe group. There's a tradition within Christianity of what you're talking about, and it's not a marginal. So anyway, now I'm ranting, I admit it, but it does drive me crazy. Exactly what you’re saying.

AMANDA TYLER:

Exactly, and just to your point, people can sense the hypocrisy. I mean, all you have to do is read the Gospels and see how what's being preached, both in churches but also in the public square, has nothing to do with what the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus stands for.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Or the teachings. I mean, if you look at someone reading the Sermon on the Mount and say, hey, get Marxism out of our churches.

AMANDA TYLER:

Yeah, well then we're going to have to remove Jesus from our churches, which is essentially, I think, what a lot of people who are worshiping Christian Nationalism have done; that the teachings of Jesus are really inconvenient to their way of life and way of thinking. And so you know you're right. I do believe it's not just a fringe, but I think it's actually a majority of Christians know that this is wrong; but for whatever reason, they haven't taken that next step to really be more fully engaged in the democratic project. And that's what this campaign has been about for the last five years; and through the book, is, I'm hoping that we'll bring more and more people into the movement and into the work.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, now is the time, and I'm sure you know, if you're listening to this, I think having a study guide, if you're within a Christian church, using this for a group study for five weeks or whatever, because we're all going to have to show up in a different way right now, and so I think it's really just necessary.

I want to take a moment, because you have, with the Baptist Joint Committee on Religious Freedom… I mean, what is religious freedom going to mean to us in the coming months and years? How is this idea that feels kind of fundamental to American democracy, how is it being instrumentalized right now? Help us understand this, because if anybody, it's you who can help us understand what's happening right now.

AMANDA TYLER:

I've been giving this a lot of thought, and continuing to think about what does religious freedom really mean in this moment? And I think part of our fallacy, Paul - and this might surprise you for me to say this - but I think we have reduced the idea of religious freedom to just what is constitutional. That we've elevated our constitutional values to such a point that we think, as long as it meets constitutional muster, that we have achieved religious freedom. And we just have to look around our society and know that that's not the truth - and that's even before the US Supreme Court has really misapplied and misinterpreted the First Amendment, as they have over the last several years, because the Constitution has never worked for everyone. People of other religious faiths, people who are non-religious, people of color, women, LGBTQ Americans, immigrants - all of these groups have had to fight for equal rights in our society, and we are all still fighting for equal rights in our society.

So when I think about religious freedom, I think about an ideal that says that our belonging in this society should never depend on what we believe or how we worship or how we identify with a given religion or not with a religion. That we all have equal belonging in society. That is the ideal that we are reaching for: that there is no Christian supremacy, that there is no supremacy of any religious belief over another, but that we can all live together and pursue our faith to full human flourishing in ways that allow everyone else to do the same. And that, I think, sticking to what the ideal is that we are trying to create and not make it so legalistic.

Now, this doesn't mean that we don't stand up for our constitutional rights and protect the Constitution. But I think we have to think, at this moment, of that being the floor and not the ceiling of what religious freedom looks like; that we have to be sure that we don't lose more ground, and that the constitutional rights are not further eroded. I'm seeing arguments all over the country saying, if it's constitutional, then it must be right and a good idea to do. And unfortunately, that's just not the case. Even if something passes legal muster, it doesn't mean that it furthers religious freedom for all people.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, I'm going down to University of Louisville that has a law school named after Brandeis. Who's my great-grandfather, as you know. And it's his birthday on the 13^th, and so I'm giving a talk there. But you know, I've been writing a biography of my grandmother, who is one of Justice Brandeis' daughters, and who is an amazing woman, and so I had to begin to actually learn a little bit - just enough to be dangerous - about Justice Brandeis' thoughts and how he approached the Constitution, how he approached the law, and how the Constitution was meant to be living - he was one of the first persons who was really talking about that - and in conversation with the reality in the world. And so, the Brandeis Brief and this idea that facts matter and there's other things that go into the conversation with the Constitution, and the Constitution can't just be stripped of that reality, of what the implications are.

I don't mean to place that on top of what you're saying because you might not actually want me to do that, but it reminded me of this idea: this is also a legal tradition in America, to really have the Constitution in conversation with what the reality is in the in the country right now, and it was never meant to be dead or moribund or this dusty thing.

It's like the Bible. It has to be in conversation, and so it reminds me of a kind of drive towards a perception of purity or a perception of, this is the essential, and we have to get back to the essential… And the essential tends to always drive some people out, and I think you said it perfectly. So I'm really reflecting on, that the reality of our court, the reality of our Constitution and how, frankly, most of Brandeis' most important work was done in dissent. And I think it might be a moment for dissent, and that eventually can become adopted as law. We’re entering into a really precarious moment, and I feel like you - and many, many others, but I'll say it in front of you - you've offered us a lifeline with this great book and with all your great work at BJC and with Christians Against Christian Nationalism. These are really important lifelines, but then, also, they can be built up into an actual ship that's moving forward… That's not a great metaphor, but I'm just working with what I got.

AMANDA TYLER:

Well, and I think I think we do it in community. I think that's the key. This is kind of my offering and the offering of the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign into the great body of work that so many organizations - Interfaith Alliance among them, but so many other organizations - that we've all been working together, and I think that's a key piece of it, is bringing our piece and then really working across all different lines of difference in order to build the pluralistic democracy that works for everyone.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

A hundred percent. I think you may remember this, but even in these times, I'm going to be asking people what gives them hope, and so let me end this podcast by asking you: What gives you hope today?

AMANDA TYLER:

I am on a book tour right now; and in fact I, just last night, was with the Interfaith Alliance of Iowa, and I'm headed to the Christians Against Christian Nationalism group of Minnesota later today. And being in these communities of people - we had a couple of hundred people come out yesterday, on a beautiful Sunday afternoon in Des Moines, Iowa, to learn about what they could do. And just seeing the response that I'm getting when I go out into communities. And at each of these stops we're making calls to action for the people who are gathered about what they can do in their local community. That gives me a tremendous amount of hope that we will, together, go through this dark time and emerge into a more hopeful and equitable future.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

The book is titled How to End Christian Nationalism. It couldn't be more timely. The author is Amanda Tyler, Executive Director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and lead organizer of Christians Against Christian Nationalism.

Amanda, thank you so much for taking time with us today on The State of Belief.

AMANDA TYLER:

Thanks for having me.