On Diversity and Democracy With Wajahat Ali

REV. PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Wajahat Ali is a Daily Beast columnist, a writer, commentator and keen observer of what this country seems to be doing to itself. His powerful book is titled Go Back to Where You Came From and Other Helpful Recommendations on How to Become an American; Waj has a Substack titled “The Left Hook,” and he also co-hosts the Democracy-ish Podcast. The Child of Immigrants, he's an invaluable contributor to the conversation around patriotism, diversity and democracy, and I am very happy to have him back on The State of Belief.

Waj, thank you so much for being here!

WAJAHAT ALI, GUEST:

Paul, you should be my publicist. You made me sound amazing. Thank you. The whole time I was listening, I'm like, that person sounds dope. You should say that to my wife. Just remind her.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Listen, we haven't even talked about how awesome your wife is. I should lead with that.

WAJAHAT ALI:

You should always lead with the spouse. We both married up, correct.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Is it okay to mention how awesome your wife is? I don't mind starting there, because she's an incredible doctor and just does so much great work. Can you mention her?

WAJAHAT ALI:

Yeah. And you know, I'm not just saying this to get husband equity, but I did marry up. My wife, Dr. Sarah Kureshi, does remarkable work at Georgetown. She's a family medicine doctor and a health practitioner who cares about community health from the ground up. And she has basically spent her time volunteering, almost, her skills to help introduce the concept of health equity and racial disparity, within the health care industry, and training these young doctors to look for their biases, right, to undo their biases.

She's also helped victims of trauma. She's gone and traveled to Kashmir. She went to Haiti.

She's a person who was a runner. She represented the United States of America in the first ever Muslim Olympics in Iran. And her shoes were part of the traveling Islamic exhibit that went to the Children's Art Museum all across the country.

And, she went to Mayo, Harvard, and UCSF, and has just been on the frontlines, advocating for her students, especially during this war in Gaza, and doing the best to make sure that people are aware of the health care crisis both here and abroad. And a mother of three.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Oh, my God, it's true. She definitely reached down. What I really love about what she's done is she's reached down, grasped the hand of Wajahat Ali, and brought him up. And I think that shows a real spirit of giving, of charity, maybe…

WAJAHAT ALI:

And patience. Kindness.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

For sure. No., Dr. Kareshi, we love you. We admire you. Thank you for all you're doing for health care that will pay dividends. I mean, that's the really it's it's a great example, a great place to start.

We're also in a moment where, another woman… If we had had this conversation last week, something different would have been, you know, the way we talked about it. But in fact, President Biden has dropped out of the race, as every single person who's not under a rock knows. And it seems certain that Vice President Harris is going to be the candidate for the Democratic Party.

I'm curious. You're in the news, you're on the news, and you write about the news. You really think about it. Where were you when you heard about this change, and what was your immediate take on what had happened?

WAJAHAT ALI:

I remember I caught it on social media and I was with my kids, and a part of me was just like a flood of emotions, I remember. And I was with three kids, my wife was doing something, so I had all the kids to myself. And I was trying to pay attention to the kids, but I was also trying to read. And while I was trying to read this and my kids were bothering me and I'm like, agh, just give me a second. And I realized, that's not my kids’ fault, they're just being kids.

And it took me a second to process it because it's… You know, we have to just acknowledge the moment, Paul. Never in our lifetime has a sitting president voluntarily relinquished power. Not just power, but this is the most powerful seat, most powerful job, the Commander-in-Chief of the most powerful nation. And for whatever reason, we'll find out later, I'm sure, I'm sure it's a confluence of reasons: perhaps his health, the poll numbers, internal mutiny, realizing the party was divided, all of the above - he makes the decision. Two big decisions. I will not seek re-election. Huge. Number two, immediately thereafter, about four minutes later, we got the second post: and I endorse Kamala Harris. And that's when I was able to breathe a sigh of relief.

Why, Paul? Because my concern, and the concern of many people of color, especially Black people, based on what we heard the past two weeks: many primaries, blitz primaries, open primaries - I'm like, wait a second. Didn’t 81 million people vote for Biden and Harris? Isn't the job of the vice president to step in if anything happens with the president? Are they actually going to bypass the first Black Indian woman?

And many of us, I think we were correct, is the answer is yes. Some people wanted to bypass her. But the fact that he did those two big things: he decided to step down for the betterment of the party, which meant the betterment of democracy, because he realizes the threat is not just Trump, but MAGA, who do not care about democracy. And I'm sure we'll talk about this. They want a dictatorship. And then he passed the torch to a Black woman.

And I just want people to sit with this for a second. You know, I criticize Biden for his policies in Gaza. I think he's been a moral failure. I do not praise or worship politicians, I never have. I do not follow the cult of personality. I believe they're servants of the people. They are tools that should be used strategically to do the most good. But when they perform well, I want to give them credit.

Joe Biden, what he's done, and I think this will go down with his legacy: he was an elderly White man from Scranton who stood beside the first Black president, served him loyally. He came out of quote-unquote “retirement” to transition the nation - literally to save the nation from a Trump dictatorship. Right? Literally. We've been in fight-flight-freeze mode for the past four years. And I always joke, right, like in Dunkirk, Churchill said, “Survival is victory.” Our victory for the next four years is survival. He was a transition president.

And then third, what does he do? He hands the baton, as an 81-year-old White man to, inshallah, the first Black female president. And during his four years, he appointed the first Black female Supreme Court justice. And I'm sure you saw his 12-minute speech yesterday, which I saw - recording this the day after the speech - somber, sad, but also very selfless and hopeful. And it was a really touching moment. And so, you know, I'm processing all of this right now.

So what went from an initial worry, fear about Democrats, that they'll bypass Kamala Harris, has now transformed, Paul, into palpable excitement. I'm excited to see grassroots movement: Black women, Black men, Latinas, South Asians, Asian-Americans, young people, TikTok, Charli XCX, Brat Summer, Beyonce. We choose freedom. And 100 plus million dollars raised. And Democrats, finally, for the love of God, going on offense and being mobilized.

You know, we were in fight-flight-freeze mode. I believe, at least for this week - and we should embrace this, Paul - we have catharsis. We have release. We have - wait for it - laughter. We have joy. And it'll be an uphill journey, it's not lost upon me. But we need that joy. And if we can sustain that joy and that energy, I believe, Paul, that we will then witness in four months the election of the first Black Indian female president. And what better message, what better image? Who defeats a White supremacist vulgarian then a Black Indian child of immigrants. Wouldn't that be beautiful?

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I don’t know that we can ascribe it to this, but I do think that there is… We can call it moral courage, there's almost a spiritual –we can ascribe a spirituality to it around what President Biden did. Because, you know, it's hard to say: “I'm giving it up.” You know, our grasp of anything that we can hold on to - and especially power - to open the fist and say, okay. Okay. I'm extremely interested in the implication for the country, but almost as a case study for how someone can go through a process. And it was not easy. And there was a lot of resistance. But it happened, and it's just a really interesting, you know, a lot of our work is within the context of religion and spirituality. And I think it's an interesting moment. And as you say, I think one of the really fascinating things about moving this into a contest between Donald Trump, who, we've said a lot about and we kind of know the Christian nationalist, kind of White supremacist, the way that he both rallies his base and presents his policies…

Even the embodiment that Kamala Harris has of all of these different folks who have come to this country. You know, like you, the daughter of immigrants from different traditions coming together. Coming from an interfaith family like myself, noting that this interfaith mixing, choosing to marry again, in an interfaith way to the second gentleman, now, into a Jewish family and attending a Black, a historically Black college, Howard University. So she has navigated and celebrated this diversity that can be the hallmark of our country; which can be understood as the power of our country. And she embodies it. So it does make this election that we're in the middle of very poignant in that way.

And I'll say, just as far as your joy comment, it's been very interesting to see, you know, what has been taking off in social media. You and I both have spent probably far too much time on social media, but I've just seen a lot of her dancing - with younger people, in a step line and all of that. And it does elevate the spirit, you know, to imagine, okay, this is going to be a slog for sure. But in some ways, it can inculcate joy, as well, if we if we decide to make it that way. So I think we're in a really interesting moment.

Now, you spend a lot of time on - I would describe it as right wing media. They like you, I think in part because you're very forthright, you're very clear. You're a little too convincing, probably, for them, but you have this incredible wit and humor about you, which I think is often in short supply. And so I'm just curious how you have been experiencing the reaction across the aisle, and what you've been seeing as far as… Obviously, they thought they were running against one person and they were talking about how terrible it is that someone could be so old. And then all of a sudden, now, it's like: oh, yeah, old isn't bad, you know? You know, I'm just curious. What has been your experience as you go on some of these shows and are kind of the token more progressive voice.

WAJAHAT ALI:

Yeah. I think the correct word is I'm a masochist. And the timing of your question is perfect, because right before, I decided to be a masochist and do a three versus one panel on Piers Morgan where we talked about Kamala Harris. And what I noticed - and I could tell, you it's been like, what, a week now? Almost a week since it's been announced that she was going to be running for president and Biden stepped down. And you could tell they're completely flat-footed. You can tell they went all in in attacking Biden on his age because they got nothing. And I'm telling you that the only thing that they had - and it didn't even stick - was “Border czar, border czar, border czar.” She is not the border czar, folks. There is no border czar. President Biden didn't make her the border czar. She wasn't the border czar. She was given a responsibility to go talk to Central American countries to find a way to engage in a policy that could reduce the number of migrants. But she's not the border czar.

So the only thing they had me on a gotcha was border czar. But even that gotcha wasn't a gotcha because they played these clips, Paul, and I'm like, awesome. I've heard the clips. Nowhere in those clips did President Biden, Kamala Harris or Democrats call her the border czar.

But like, “the media!” I'm like, the media's been wrong. This is all you got? And even Piers Morgan himself, who has emerged as a defender of Trump, especially after the assassination attempt. You know, I was on his show right after the failed assassination attempt and he told me, “Trump won.” He said, “It's done. I saw the photo. Him raising the fist. It's over. He won.” And I'm like, “Last time I checked the election’s in November.” He goes, “It's over.”

And you could tell there's palpable fear here, because they realize their misogyny isn't working. And there was a woman there from the RNC and she was, kind of without saying it, saying it that, hey, Donald has to change his tone, his temperature. And I said, “I can't gaslight you folks. I've been covering this man for nine years. He is 78 years old. This man will not change. If you thought he'd change, I give you the RNC. He lasted for 30 minutes - and then he said 9000 extra words where he just completely devolved.

I give you, literally, his rally in Charlotte, where he did a - not a 180 after a near-death experience, a 360. And so there is a palpable understanding on the right wing that this man is a misogynist, that this man has chosen another misogynist, JD Vance - the clip of him talking about cat ladies has gone viral to the point where Rachel, Jennifer Aniston, who doesn't weigh into politics, has come out and said, this is horrific, that someone could say this. And when do you lose Rachel? That means you're a step away from losing Karen. And I think the fact that…

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Wait, wait, I just want to make sure our listeners kind of followed that. This is Rachel from “Friends,” who's Jennifer Aniston, and not everybody has that exactly in the front lobe of their mind, like you do, apparently. But it is interesting. I had not seen that she had…

WAJAHAT ALI:

Today. Today she did.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And so when I heard that, I was like, JD Vance, has anybody media trained you? I mean, like, why would you say that?

WAJAHAT ALI:

There's multiple quotes. And so, you know, what they realize here - and you could tell, because it was really interesting, Paul, is they tried to pivot. And the only thing they could pivot to was immigration, immigration, immigration, and border czar. They realized they're stuck with Trump. I sit on his show. Trump peaked last week. He survived the assassination attempt. He had the photo. He had the RNC, he coronated JD Vance. They had a week of the RNC and now he's back to who he is. From here on out, it's either going to be plateau or down.

Meanwhile, you have palpable energy from women, young people, people of color. And what I said and have been saying for years is: Republicans have underestimated the righteous rage of women. They have not forgotten that Donald Trump is a rapist. They did not forget his misogyny against Hillary Clinton. They do not forget Roe v Wade being overturned. And now they see clips of JD Vance mocking these quote-unquote “Single, childless cat ladies” as being miserable. I'm telling you, there are women on the fence, independent women, even some conservative women who I think, Paul, my prediction: on the DL, not telling their Republican husbands, are going to come out and vote for Kamala. Or at the very least not vote for Donald. And I think they're stuck because, as you said, the old guy now is the oldest person to ever run for president, 78 year old Donald, who is a what? Criminal convict. And running against who? A prosecutor. A misogynist running against a woman. A White supremacist running against the daughter of immigrants.

And the funniest thing - this was the funniest thing, I mean, you know, you're three against one, and you sit there and you evaluate your performance. And I'm always hard on myself. And I sit there and I'm like, I gave myself a B. I could have been sharper if I slept more. They actually said this, which I thought was hilarious, and I wanted to respond. They said, “We're going to run on policy, and we're going to win.” And I'm like, yes, please. Project 2025? Yes, please.

I think they're stuck. And Frank Lutz, who was that Republican pollster who always talks to like, White, undecided voters, he was on before me. He openly said, he goes, “This is now a tight race. The edge that Trump is, is gone. This is anyone's race.” And he openly told Piers, that energy is palpable, and Republicans should be paying attention. This energy is something I haven't seen in a long time.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Do you predict? And I want, right here on The State of Belief - do you predict that Trump is going to dump J.D. Vance? Come on, on the record.

WAJAHAT ALI:

Will Donald Trump carry J.D. Vance to term? Let us ask. If I were him, I would dump him. You know why? As of this recording, J.D. Vance has posted the lowest poll numbers in the past 45 years of any VP candidate. J.D. Vance has the charisma of a dead lettuce. J.D. Vance is called out as a fraud by White Appalachian writers. J.D. Vance will be exposed as a fraud, especially if Kamala Harris uses a midwestern or southern White as her DEI vice president. J.D. Vance is a rich boy, a venture capitalist, the tool of Peter Thiel, and J.D. Vance has tripled down on misogyny. You know, childless cat ladies, you know, blaming single people, saying they shouldn't have as much rights as parents, you know, no-fault divorce... Even Trump didn't talk about no-fault divorce. He went into no-fault divorce, no exceptions for rape or incest when it comes to abortion... I mean, there is such ugliness there and such unlikability that, again, I know people joke about this frivolous comment, but if Jennifer Aniston, who is a pop cultural figure, a White woman beloved by White women, Rachel from “Friends,” is for the first time literally commenting and using this clip that has gone viral - you better believe, Paul, women are going to be pissed.

And I'll also say this. This is an actual headline in American politics as of yesterday: J.D. Vance did not have sex with a couch. I'm not making that up, folks. That literally was headline news.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, well, you know, the other the other piece - this was so crazy - but I was starting to see all this stuff about J.D. Vance and gay. Is J.D. Vance gay? And it's because of this clip, this short thing from Hillbilly Elegy. And it shouldn't be a thing, but it's out there now: he thought he was gay because he liked his best friend and he preferred his best friend to girls. So then he asked his grandmother, am I gay because I like my best friend? And she was like, no, no, no, no, no - and then said something vulgar. But it was just so funny that it came up. When you write a book like that, you know, be prepared, for people to start taking it out. And so anyway, the fact that it was kind of out there on social media and that I actually googled it and it was like, what is this referencing? And found like something - it wasn't just a deep fake - but there was no there, there. But it's just fascinating.

WAJAHAT ALI:

I'm sorry to say this, I mean, it's a dirty aspect of politics, right? But it's like what LBJ said is, “I want to get” - he was talking about an opponent one time, and he says, “I know that guy is in a pig effer, but I want him to deny it.” And the Streisand Effect is the more and more you deny something and it becomes the news, the more and more people pay attention to it. So the fact that the Associated Press had a headline, then had to correct the headline, then deleted the article about J.D. Vance not having sex with a couch. Everyone is like, J.D. Vance had sex with a couch?! No he didn't. What do you mean?

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly the same thing. And, you know, it's just like, it's so it is really interesting. And also, what I'm really curious about: it’s this phenomenon of all these political figures, religious leaders and others, who really had a moral clarity that Trump was dangerous and that Trump should not be supported and that - I don't know if you saw that Pete Buttigieg thing on Bill Maher, where he talked about where at one point J.D. Vance called Trump an opioid, and what a severe insult that was given his background. And so 1I guess I'm wondering, like, how do how do people change as much as J.D. Vance did in such a short time? And this is not just him. Many religious leaders, mostly evangelical Christians - but not just - saw him as a danger and saw his moral failings and said, okay, well, this can't be the candidate. But then they flipped and now are some of his most ardent supporters. What's your take on that?

And by the way, there's a lot that's going on in this election, especially around politics and religion, that it feels like we just made it up. But it happens all around the world. How religious folks kind of coalesce around a powerful political leader. And I'm just wondering, what's your take on how people can change so quickly and embrace something that just recently they thought was abhorrent?

WAJAHAT ALI:

I think there's two reasons. Number one, let's remember that Lindsey Graham initially emerged in 2015 and 2016 as the most vocal critic of Trump and said that if we elected him, we deserve to lose, right? And then next thing you know, he is his Reek. And that is a Game of Thrones reference. And that was me being very nice, by the way. I know families listen to the show. And when they asked Lindsey Graham why you did the 180 and he said - wait for it - relevance. He knows that Donald Trump is now the figurehead of the MAGA party. He wants to be close to power. He wants to be relevant. So he will twist himself into a pretzel, jettison any sort of morality, ethics, values, self-respect - and kiss the ring.

Ted Cruz is another one. This dude literally mocked Ted Cruz. He mocked Ted Cruz's wife. He promoted a conspiracy theory that Ted Cruz's father killed JFK. And Ted Cruz says, yes, may I have another?

And then you see J.D. Vance. I didn't call him America's Hitler. You didn't call him America's Hitler. On these rightwing shows, they blamed the left for inciting violence against Donald Trump, even though Donald Trump incited a violent insurrection. You know who called him America's Hitler? J.D. Vance! And he picked the guy who called him America's Hitler to be his vice president. So maybe he took it as a compliment, because he also quotes Hitler. And according to General Kelly, who was his DHS secretary, he used to praise Hitler.

The reason why J.D. Vance did it is because J.D. Vance is an opportunist. And he realized, aha! This is where the wind is blowing and I want to become powerful. And I am a stone's throw away from the presidency if Donald Trump wins. So I will triple down and be even more Trump than Trump. He's a misogynist - I'll be more misogynist. He's a homophobe - I'll be more homophobic. He's a racist - I'll promote the White supremacist Replacement Theory. He's greedy - I'm but the tool of billionaires. I'm a venture capitalist. I will say anything and everything, and I will bring out my DEI wife and my DEI children to prove that this Republican Party that is racist is not racist.

And then the second reason why, I think - and this is a very important question for State of Belief: I had a conversation with Robby Jones - we all know Robby Jones. He's the head of PRRI, Public Religion Research Institute, does fantastic polls specifically on religious communities and religious voters. And I'm going to put this up on Left Hook later today: you know, why do White Christians still support Donald? And what he was saying is, they realize he's a vulgarian. They realize he's disgusting. But what they want is power, and they're losing people. They're shedding people. In fact, in the past nine years, more and more people are leaving.

Now, you would think, Paul, that that would inspire reflection. Why are we losing young people? Why are we losing people of color? Why are we losing women? Why are we losing LGBTQ? But instead, what that's inspired is a zero-sum mindset where it's fight or flight, and they're tripling down. And they are going to win by any means necessary. And they want power by any means necessary. So they have seen Donald Trump as their flawed vessel, an instrument that they can ride to power.

So it's the same here. It's greed, power, relevance. this is why they're supporting him. And this is the story - and, you know, we could talk about faith and religion. It's always nice when you could talk about this because you can't talk about it in other places. We've seen stories about this in all our holy books, with all of our prophets. You know, God created Moses. He also created Pharaoh.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Right. Well, and the devil tempts Jesus by saying, “I'll give you all of the power of the world if you just follow me.” And Jesus said, “No, I don't want that power.” It's really curious. And I do think it's another one of these reflection pieces and I certainly think that this temptation of power and temptation of being able to exercise power and control over others and planning for that, which brings me in to turn to Project 2025. You're of a legal background, and you don't have to be a lawyer to read this, but it's 900 pages. I assume you have not just taken this and curled up on your couch and read every word. But my guess is that you've looked into it. What are some of your takeaways specifically around what the implications are for a diverse society and also a religiously diverse society?

WAJAHAT ALI:

Trump's Project 2025 is the blueprint for authoritarian rule. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that. It is, in a pop culture analogy that I can use, a Bond villain in the first ten minutes of a Bond movie, finding James Bond, tapping on the shoulder and say, “hey, hey, do you want to read my evil supervillain plot to take over the world? I have a slide show. You have five minutes?” This is what the Republicans have done.

And you know, they're trying to distance themselves from Trump and vice versa. Nope. His fingerprints are all over it. Over 100 of the most leading influential conservative groups have backed it, and it has the backing of the Koch brothers and leading conservative billionaires. And all of Trump's minions are all over this project. And he has praised the Heritage Foundation, and the Heritage Foundation president has, in turn praised Donald Trump. He says this is his Project 2025. And the president of the Heritage Foundation, which is the main conservative group behind Project 2025, just three weeks ago, openly said on Steve Bannon's show - Steve Bannon wasn't hosting at the time because Steve Bannon was in prison - he said, “We're in the process of a second revolution, and it will be bloodless - if the left allows it to be.”

It is also, Paul, a White Christian nationalist agenda. Do not underestimate the fingerprints and the DNA of White Christian nationalism around this 900-page document. I've been following it for a year, and in this document, what they seek to do on day one of the Trump presidency is learn from the mistakes, the amateur mistakes of the 2016 Trump administration.

The coup - the failed coup - was a dress rehearsal. They are going to purge the government of anyone who is seen as not being loyal enough to Trump. Specifically in the summer - more people should be talking about this - Heritage Foundation has given $10 million to a think tank that, as we are speaking, is identifying public servants, right now, who are not sufficiently loyal. And before the summer, they will put their names and photos up on a website. May God protect them and their families. They're going to purge the government.

They're going to weaponize the DHS to make it like his personal SAVAK, his personal army, to go against enemies. They're going to completely gut and destroy the Department of Education, because they've had a 70-year war on public education ever since Brown vs. Board of Education and desegregation. They're going to destroy the EPA, gut all regulations, gut all climate regulations, go after women's rights, go after abortion rights, IVF, marriage equality, and they're going to go after Social Security and Medicare.

It is a blueprint for right wing minoritarian and rule. It is a blueprint for White Christian nationalism. It is a blueprint for power and a Trump dictatorship. And as we know, Trump said he will be dictator for a day. And what we know is dictators aren't just dictators for a day. They're dictators for life.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, dictator for a day is not actually a thing. You know, one of the things that you and I have talked about in the past is this kind of real war on public education, on libraries, and this sense of who gets to control the thought? Basically it's, if you can control schools, if you can control libraries, it means you can also control knowledge. And I had the privilege of speaking at the American Library Association and just saying, words and stories are the foundation of sacred traditions. And if you're trying to curtail those, actually, it's a threat to religious freedom as well as to the democracy.

And so I'm curious what you've been hearing - and you just mentioned it as part of Project 2025 - but you know, what we're seeing in Oklahoma, for instance, and one of the writers,I think, of Project 2025 has now joined, in Oklahoma, to dictate the curriculum that includes the Bible. And by the way, I'll just say, you know, my personal soapbox is: you say you want the Bible to be in public schools. Well, who's going to teach it and who's going to decide? Is it going to be me? You want me, a commie Christian like me? I mean, who's going to do that?

WAJAHAT ALI:

Well, it's indoctrination. You know, it's very deliberately that they're going to purge textbooks, and very deliberately, as they said, they're going to teach the Ten Commandments and the Bible, and very deliberately they're going to weaken public schools and replace them with, quote unquote, “charter schools” and “voucher schools.”

And in Arizona, CNN did a really good investigative report that each time these voucher schools and charter schools come up, it comes at the expense of, number one, the public schools. And number two, these are - wait for it - White Christian conservative schools. Surprise, surprise. Oh, look at that. What a shock. And the reason for this, folks - and I'm glad you talked about public education, and this is why, in a strange way, you know, I don't know who she's going to nominate for vice president. I think it's a good bench. I like many of them. But Tim Walz is a teacher from Minnesota, the governor. I think putting the focus on teachers, on education, on books is really crucial, because I don't think most Americans know about the 70-year war of the right wing on education. For folks who don't know, the culture war didn't start with abortion. That came later. That was the 70s, right, with Falwell. It has always been public schools.

It started with Brown vs. Board of Education - which, by the way, Clarence Thomas says he wants to, quote-unquote, “revisit,” so heads-up, folks - which desegregated public schools. And ever since then, the right wing has been animated because they think that public schools are an incubator. They do not have control over public schools, and they want their own schools. They believe they've lost the majority. So if you can weaken public schools, you can weaken quote unquote “indoctrination.” You can replace it with Christian indoctrination. You can weaken the teachers’ union, which, by the way, leans very Democrat. And you have another capitalist chip where you can privatize these schools and make more money.

They also want to ban books. They also want to ban Concorcee (?), CRT and DEI. We saw in Georgia they just reversed themselves -because I'm sure they saw the poll numbers - where two days ago they banned AP African American Studies and just yesterday they reversed it. And Jason Stanley has come out with a book that he'd1 given me an advance copy of, it's coming out in September. You should have them on. He's a scholar of fascism and it's called Erasing History. And it talks about how this attack on history, on language, on knowledge, the culture bomb that fascists have employed. Mussolini did it. The Nazis did it. British colonial empires did it in Africa. And this is what MAGA wants to do, right, to control history. To revert to this pure romantic vision of an America that never existed, in which the White Christian man was at the top, given this duty by God to purify this land of pagans and savages. But it's these woke, dEI, gay, liberal lefty anarchists who are sullying this pure land.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And poisoning the bloodstream.

WAJAHAT ALI:

Vermin poisoning the bloodstream. So literally, what we're seeing now, literally, is what Mussolini did and the Nazis did. And MAGA is following in their footsteps.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It's a perilous time. But I do think that there's some opportunities. One of the things I do want to talk to you about is, we had Amy Spitalnick on the show and she mentioned that you and she had been on some panels together and, you know, this has been a very stressed time for interfaith relations. And certainly it's something I've been feeling and, you know, the war in Gaza and the devastation and the October 7th attacks there. I'd love to get your take on that in the context of the broader, kind of what it looks like to be in coalition with people who sometimes you disagree with really severely.

WAJAHAT ALI:

You know, it's been very difficult. But let me put it this way - and I think this is the reason why Amy and I have gotten along, even though we disagree on certain things, but we agree on, like, eight out of ten things, right? Amy is a Zionist, Jewish American, very liberal. I think the first female, head of Jewish Public Affairs committee. JPAC. And we've done like 6 or 7 panels with me, her, and Eric Ward. I'm sure your listeners know Eric Ward, from Race Forward, a Black man who has condemned and talked about how White supremacy is intertwined with anti-Black racism, antisemitism and Islamophobia. So we have gone, kind of like it's the beginning of either a hilarious joke or a bad joke: A Jew, a Black man, and a Muslim walk into a room to create solidarity against Thanos - which is not a college protestor, but White supremacy. And it's gone over really well.

The problem is, is in the past ten months, as you know, Paul, that people don't want to talk. There's litmus tests. If you are pro-Palestinian, you're seen as the enemy – or, according to Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday, not just an enemy, but doing the work of Hamas and doing the bidding of Iran, which is really interesting to say about Jews who occupied, peacefully, the rotunda of the U.S. Capitol two days ago and said, not in our name. Apparently to them, they're Hamas. Or the family members of the hostages who literally flew from Jerusalem to D.C. to protest Netanyahu and got arrested. Apparently, they're Hamas, but I digress.

And then, you know, on the flip side, within progressive spaces, it's very difficult because progressives are like, I want to be in alliance with Jewish Americans; but if you're supporting what we call a genocide, you know, this is where the rubber hits the road. And unfortunately, this has bled over to people saying, “I won't talk to any Zionists.” And what I see, and the reason I put myself out there, and I get hated from all sides because I'm a masochist, is no one's going back, Paul. And I want people to think about the big picture, and no one often does because we're seizing the moment. Muslims aren't going back. Arabs aren't going back. Palestinians aren't going back. Jews aren't going back, both in Israel and Palestine and here. Jewish Zionists, they're, you know, in some capacity, however they define themselves, the majority of Jews are Zionists. they're not going to vanish overnight. You know, who's also not going to vanish? The multiracial, multicultural coalition that wants freedom for Palestinians, that includes Jews. They're not going to vanish.

You know what's here that is attacking all of our communities, that has deliberately preyed upon this conflict to do a divide and conquer? White supremacists. You know what has risen in the past ten months as a result of this failed war, this genocide? Antisemitism and Islamophobia, both here and abroad, that has resulted in a Palestinian kid being shot, a Palestinian kid being killed, Wadee, in Chicago. You know, the forces behind project 2025 and Trump, they hate Jews, Muslims and Arabs. The reason why they love Israel - and Jews aren't stupid, they realize this - Benjamin Netanyahu's core group is not Jews, folks. It is White evangelical Christians and the right wing. The largest Zionist group in America is not Jews. It's Christians United for Israel, led by Pastor Hagee, an Evangelical Christian. They love Israel. And the reason they love Israel, Paul, as you know, is because they believe in their end of times theology that Jews need to control Jerusalem as a necessary precondition for Jesus to come back. And then when Jesus comes back, the two groups that die first are Jews and Muslims.

They love Israel, Paul. They don't love Jews, which is why Trump has embraced Nick Fuentes and Nazis, very fine people, used Hitler's language, promoted the White supremacist conspiracy theory. And my fear is that Israel and Palestine will be a wedge issue that will divide this multicultural, diverse coalition that is needed in this moment, Paul, to confront and beat White supremacy. We need a multiracial, multicultural, pro-democracy coalition to go up against MAGA.

And for people who think I'm just BSing, I give you Hungary for an example. Viktor Orban, the authoritarian leader of Hungary, whom Republicans love and openly said that is their model for America. In Hungary, when the pro-democracy coalition splintered, fascist movements won. And fascist movements historically have never gotten the majority. They get, what, 38%, 35%, 42%, but that's enough for them to get in power.

So what I'm begging people to do is you can simultaneously hold these truths together. Joe Biden has been a moral failure on Gaza. What's happening right now in Gaza is a genocide. Israel has become extremely right wing. Zionism, as identified by Benjamin Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir, is a poison for Israel, Israeli security, for Zionism, for Judaism, for Palestinians, for the region. It is in the interest of all people that you have a diplomatic solution. Military solutions have failed. Palestinians deserve to be free. And the occupation and the settlements have a peace agreement where Jews and Palestinians can live side by side or together with peace. And the sooner this happens, the sooner there will be peace and security for all of our people.

That being said, it's a big inshallah Hail Mary pass. Until that happens, if you can agree on six to seven to eight things. if you can't, agree on three things. Do you agree that Jews and Muslims and Arabs have a right to be the co-protagonists of the American narrative? Do you agree that our families deserve to be safe? Do you agree that we have the right to worship in our synagogues and mosques and churches? Do you agree that Donald Trump is an existential threat to this democracy? Do you agree that White supremacy is a threat? Do you? Wonderful. You're my ally.

I don't agree with you on everything, but on this, let's link arms. Don't ignore our differences. Talk about them. And then the last thing I'll say is the reason I think why Amy, myself and Eric are successful is we don't ignore the elephant in the room. Oftentimes in these interfaith spaces - and you know this, Paul - it's what I call hummus theology. You eat hummus, I eat hummus, let's eat hummus! Should we talk about Israel-Palestine? No, no, no, no, it's all bullshit. And this thing just festers, festers, festers.

But if you sit with the discomfort, if you have people air their truths, if you hear things that make you uncomfortable but you stay in the room, as we have done - what we have seen, Paul, in the past ten months, having done this now, I think 7 or 8 times is, instead of constriction, there's expansion. Instead of anger, there's catharsis. People feel heard. People are able to tolerate discomfort - discomfort is not the same thing as, like, not being safe. And furthermore, you're able to push the conversation forward and sit there and be like, okay, I heard you. I didn't die, I didn't melt, I didn't punch you in the face. We're still here in the room. Let's move forward. And that's what I've seen, Paul. I'm sorry for this rant, but I feel like for this audience, it's really important.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

No, I really think it's important. And, you know, there's things you said that I totally agree with and things you said I don't agree with. And that's the point here, is that we can't just talk to people who absolutely agree with on everything. And within the Muslim community that's true. I mean, I know that you've gotten it as much from your own community as outside of your community…

WAJAHAT ALI:

Oh, they’re not fans. They’re not fans.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

But I mean, some are, though. A lot of people are. And I have the same thing with me is like, I'm often like, I'm not enough on your side. But I do think that they’re, hopefully, and I admire it and it's hard work, but for those of us who are committed to, as you said, multiracial, multi-religious, multiethnic America, we have to recognize that we can't just splinter. That's not even an option. And so somehow, we have to figure out ways to be in community within disagreement, and figure out ways to not participate in the wider demonization of one another that is very quick. And frankly, it's pretty easy to do that work. I mean, it's really easy to write people off. That can feel good in an immediate moment, but it's not, ultimately, I think, a recipe for moving forward. Same with Amy and same with Eric. There's just the willingness to put yourself out there and the willingness to kind of take it from your own community, because Amy gets it from her own community.

WAJAHAT ALI:

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, Amy got it because Amy was part of that three-person panel with AOC recently, and then AOC got canceled by the Democratic Socialists for hosting Amy - who is very reasonable. You could disagree with her. Reasonable, liberal. You'll agree with her for like, eight out of ten things, you know. but Amy gets it. AOC got it. But I recommend people doing this - because I know there's probably some faith leaders here. We need you to step into discomfort. We need you to take some arrows. We need you to break some eggs. We need you to sacrifice some of your comfort in the present moment for the long term. Because, folks, nobody is going anywhere.  Nobody's going back. You can't snap your thumbs, call all these pro-Palestinian protesters, Hamas, and just think magically they'll disappear. It's not going to happen. Just like you can't say, I will never engage with a Zionist - you're banking on, like what, millions of Jews just overnight not becoming Zionist? Maybe that'll happen. I don't think it will in my lifetime, Paul. So we live in this shared real estate and the shared space where we have shared threats. Let's find a way forward and at the same time advocate for peace and justice.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, I just think it's really important to mention that - and you're not new to this. I mean, I remember you did some reporting where you actually talked to settlers, and you've been involved in a lot of the Israel-Palestine work before this. You've been really thinking about this. And so it's hard work, but I think it's really important that we listen to one another and find all the things that we can work together on. Because as Interfaith Alliance, just people walking out on one another doesn't help when we're trying to create safe schools where everyone can learn, you know what I mean? Like if we're walking out because we disagree on really important issues on other things, but we actually have similar goals, how can we stay together and how can we actually show up for one another and insist that anti-Muslim, anti-Arab hate and antisemitism and anti-Jewish hate - we don't want that in our communities. And can we show up for one another? And I think that's really, really important.

You know, you're a little bit of a free agent. I know that that doesn't mean that everything in your life is free, but you do a lot of media. As we move into kind of both the election but then also what comes after the election, what are you really focusing on? I mean, there's the immediate thing around the candidates and who's going to win the election. But what are the broader context in American democracy? What's something that either keeps you up at night, you know, what are the things that you're like, I wish we could talk about this more people.

WAJAHAT ALI:

Everything keeps me up at night. I think to simplify, we're dealing with democracy versus dictatorship. I have my criticism of the Democratic Party, as one should. Like I said, I do not kneel to any political party or politician, but there's no both sides here. We're dealing with the Democratic Party that, with all its flaws, is a party that wants to embrace and advance freedoms versus a dictatorial right wing movement, let's be honest, that wants to take away our freedoms. Where Donald Trump has refused to accept that he lost the 2020 election, and in the debate, he refused to admit that he'll accept the 2024 election results. He was asked three times. And he led a violent insurrection. And he's a criminal. And now that mindset of criminality and insurrection and conspiracy theories has contaminated the entirety of the conservative movement and led to Project 2025.

Something that I am curious about, and I hope and I can only pray and hope and use whatever limited powers I have is to pressure the Democratic Party, for once in your life, accept the fact that you are a multiracial movement. Your shadow is black. Don't be afraid of your shadow which is black, which is also the color of your strongest, most loyal base. Black voters, Black women. Do not be afraid that you have women in your base, young people in your base, gay people in your base, immigrants, Latinos. For so long, we have seen Democrats shy away - even in the past three, three and a half years, Paul, let's be honest. You know, we can't gaslight people. On Democracy-ish, Danielle and I have been telling Democrats, why don't you unleash Kamala Harris? And they were afraid: ooh, the polls. She's Black. She's a woman. They kept her hidden. Well, now, this is the face of your party, a Black Indian woman. Will you be bold for once? Will you embrace this vision of America? Will you show it? Will you elevate these people as surrogates, as delegates? Will you unleash a Jamie Raskin and an AOC? Gallegos and a Castro? a Mark Kelly and Tim Walz and Andy Beshear, and Gretchen Whitmer. And will you not just embrace these people? Will you empower these movements, these grassroots movements? Will you share, openly, policies of much-needed progressive reform that you have been so scared to share because of all the magical undecided voter in the Rust Belt who wears a MAGA hat? Who's going to vote for Trump, right.

And we saw little inklings of this, you know, in that 12 minute speech, the farewell speech, if you will, kind of a farewell speech, of President Biden. You know, one of the things he said, which is pretty bold, talked about Supreme Court reform. You know, when you saw that We Choose Freedom ad that came out, I think today, great ad, Beyonce. I love the fact that they're embracing patriotism. That's something that Democrats - they've shied away from it. They always ceded it to the violent insurrectionists, Trump and MAGA. I've been saying this for months. Embrace the word “freedom.” We choose freedom. We're not going back. We're going forward.

And then you saw the images, Kamala Harris, you saw… They spent, I don't know if you saw this, Paul, they spent a good three seconds… You know, something I picked up on, the pride flags, on those people waving the pride flags. It wasn't a quick half-second cut. It was a good one one-thousand, two one-thousand… And I was like, ooh, that's a change. They didn't shy away from it. They didn't shy away from the Black women and the Latino women who were there. So this is where it is a an inflection point. It is a moment of crisis, but also a moment of opportunity for the nation and the Democratic Party. Democratic party, you're what we've got in this two-party system. Will you stand up for the people who have been marginalized? Will you stand up for the people who have been in the shadows? Will you stand up for the rest of us who have always helped carry you across the finish line?

It's that Sex and the City episode. I never watched that show. I saw one episode in college that always stuck in my mind about how there was this guy who kept dating one of the women, but he kept taking her to these underground restaurants, and she realized she was a side piece. He never took her to, like, the overground restaurants. So I felt like the rest of us have been like the dates at the underground restaurants. Will they invite us to the ball? Will they invite us to the ball? Will we ride the pumpkin? That, for me, that's what I'm looking at.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, well, I think if you're looking for inspiration for more of your political views, you should probably really spend some time on Sex and the City. So I really feel like, Waj, that's something that you haven't done enough of.

I do want to just spend a minute on the Left Hook, congratulations, Substack. And not just a once in a while Substack. You really use it. You're someone, in some ways like many of us who have kind of ridden the wave of technology: like, what's the way people are getting information now? What are the ways that we can contribute? Substack certainly is one of them. What has been your experience of using that, and what are some of your goals for the Left Hook?

WAJAHAT ALI:

Yeah. So to answer that question, you know, unfortunately what we have seen is an erosion of trust in legacy media institutions. I believe having a robust fourth estate is necessary and important for a democracy, but also for an informed citizenry. Unfortunately, the reason why not just the right, but also the left, especially in the past month as we have seen, has completely lost trust in CNN and MSNBC and New York Times, is because they realize they're engaging in a both-sides horse race,while our freedoms and democracy are on the line, and they are beholden to corporate media guidelines. The north star of corporate media, Paul - and look, for a year, I was at CNN as a contributor. I was a contributing op-ed writer for The New York Times. I've had a foot in these industries, but I've been mostly a Ronan, an independent.

But I've seen enough over 20 years. And I could tell you, that a lot of good journalists, a lot of people who care, about the North star of corporate media is ratings, access, views and clicks. And people are tired of being gaslit. You know, I'll give you an example. Two weeks ago: “Trump has changed! He will be serene. He is now pensive. He will be a unifier.” And people are like, what the eff are you talking about? You know, both sides. Biden stumbled. He misspelled a word. Nonstop coverage for two weeks. Yesterday, frigging Donald Trump couldn't say the word abortion. And so you could tell the majority is like, I'm done. I can't be gaslit to, I can't sit there, I'm tired of this bullshit. And so people are moving away, unfortunately, from traditional media, legacy media, which is betraying, in my opinion, the voice and perspectives of the people. And they're moving towards the wild, wild West, for better and for worse.

And wild, Wild West is TikTok and Instagram. My children, ages nine, eight and three, do not watch TV. They watch YouTube, they watch TikTok, they watch Instagram. When I came in as a young man, I was 28, I had to give a lecture to traditional journalists about new media, and they called me a new media journalist. I'm like, “I am?” They’re like, “You are.” I'm like, okay. And they said, “Tell us about the Twitter and what's happening with the Facebook and the blogs.” And I was like, all right.

And now you have TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Twitch, for better and for worse, Paul. And you have Substack. And so Substack was after me for two years, and I kept saying, ehh, ehh, no. And then I realized, you know what? I'm sick and tired of this. I don't think corporate media is going to change. They haven't been agile, they haven't evolved. They haven't adapted. Lo and behold, the past month I was right. And I got sick and tired of always asking for permission. So I joined up on Substack 40 days ago, you know, to write in a way that could be unleashed, and to write in a voice that I think a lot of people wanted. They desperately wanted this on cable media, but they weren't getting it.

And also to build, Paul, what I call the majority. The majority, a liberal information ecosystem that is dwarfed by the right wing, which is the minority, but gets billions of dollars. Right? So I'm like, we have the numbers, why don't we just build our own? And so the Left Hook, in part, helps amplify this existing ecosystem. And I've created alliances with a lot of our friends because I believe we're not going to get the big money. That's okay. Grassroots. We saw the power of grassroots in the past week when it comes to politics, we can do the same in media. And I've done it for 40 days, and I thought I would just do it like 2 or 3 times a week. But it feels like it kind of has revived me and my pen. I'm cranking out stuff every day. I'm doing interviews with people who I think should be getting prime time coverage, but they don't. Our friend Robby Jones, Rula Jebreal, experts who really have studied Project 2025. Anne Nelson, you know, Jason Johnson talking about Black voters. And I want to create an informed citizenry, and I want to punch back.

Figuratively, I believe you can punch a bully in the face. They deserve to be mocked, ridiculed. The emperor has no clothes. Shame him for it. And I just don't see that in corporate media. And I've been very lucky that, you know, my subscriber list has just been going up, up, up, up, up. So there seems to be an audience thirsty for this. I've been very lucky.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Yeah, yeah. The Left Hook Substack. Wajahat Ali, you can find it. And get what is really a kind of a more constant stream than you might imagine. You know, in some iterations, Substack is like my once a week Substack; but you're using it almost more as a blogging platform, what we used to call. And I think people are looking for more consistent updates. And I think that that's great.

WAJAHAT ALI:

And I've tried, Paul, I've tried, and the proof is in the pudding. I don't half-ass it. Each post, I make it thoughtful, I spell check, I put in links, I do the research, I write, you know, because I have a lot of experience in writing op eds. So if you read it, I want you to sit there and go, you know, I might not agree with him, but he put thought into this.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

100%. I think it's really important. And, you know, I'll say as like a pat on my own back, but it was one of these things that, I was just very like, ehh, just one more thing, I just can't get on TikTok. I can't. But then we did, as an organization, Interfaith Alliance, and you know what? What I would have considered a very boring sermon on Christian nationalism, where it kind of break it down, you know, it's now at like 700,000 views. And if 700,000 viewers now have a language to describe Christian nationalism - and the comments are very gratifying in the sense that they're like, I didn't know a religious leader would ever say this; a Christian leader would ever say this about Christian nationalism. You and I know that there's lots of people trying to say this, but for many people, they just think that that's what Christians think. And so to be able to reach people who are in these new media spaces, where they just might not have exposure to other folks.

So I'm, from way back when, you know, doing Beliefnet in 1999 to now…

WAJAHAT ALI:

Pour one out for Beliefnet. And at Huff Post. Paul was at Beliefnet, he was at Huff Post. But it's very smart. You have to be agile and adapt, and a pastor needs to talk to the people and meet them where they are and speak in a language that they can understand.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And really, meeting people where they are. And so it's been exciting and an interesting ride.

So we talked about the Left Hook. You have a podcast, Democracy-ish, which is another place that you show up. So, I want to end with what we kind of always end on this show, which is inviting some reflection on hope and what gives you hope right now, Wajahat Ali.

WAJAHAT ALI:

Yeah, well, I'm writing a book on this, actually, and I have to interview you for it to prospectus on this because, as you know, my daughter went through stage four cancer four years ago, and she had, a full liver transplant, and we didn't think she would make it until the last second. There was an anonymous donor, literally at the critical last second, who stepped up and gave a piece of his liver to my daughter. He had never met her, and we found out who that was. That's Shawn Zahir, and we just celebrated her eighth birthday a week and a half ago with an epic water balloon fight, where I filled out 1500 water balloons. And we had an amazing waterslide that was like the best waterslide ever, with two lanes and super high up. And then I made a vow that any person who would come to our home to celebrate her birthday, young or old, visually impaired or visually not impaired, any color, any gender, would get soaked. And I was able to unleash the water balloons. And I also brought out the hose, and maybe there were some trays of water, but we got everyone.

I'm mentioning this because there were moments in that journey, if you will, during her stage for cancer, where people said, oh, it's over, there's no way this will happen. And lo and behold, four years later, here's this beautiful, bouncy little diva with long, luscious hair, who just celebrated her eighth birthday. What I'm saying is, folks, don't obey in advance. Don't kneel, don't give up. Hope is not just a frame of mind. Hope is an action. Hope is a muscle. You have to imagine a better future, and then you have to work towards it. You have to imagine that, inshallah, things get better - and then you have to create pathways to getting there. And that's why I have hope. Because number one, because of my daughter, number one, because our faith commands hope. Your faith, my faith. We never give up in God's mercy or any opportunity. It ain't over until it's over.

And then finally, the last week. Look what happened. People imagined a better future. They said, we aren't going back. And with their own hands, they did the work and they created pathways towards success. And they raised more than $100 million. And they've come up with organizations and mobilizations and communities where now you have White women. White women are rallying. For once we're like, yes, thank you, White women. And they're like, all right, Black women did it. Latinas did, Asians did it. White women. Majority of us voted for Trump in 2016, 2020. Eff that, not any more.

So this is giving me hope, and I think it's okay to feel hopeful in this moment, to feel joyful in this moment, to feel it. Feel it, even though there will be bumps on the road. Feel it even though there might be setbacks.  Feel it because there's four months left to the election, we don't know what's going to happen. Feel it, nurture it, sustain it. Because hope is also contagious, Paul. And we need that contagion to spread for this multiracial, multicultural coalition that might disagree on a lot of stuff but agrees that we need to preserve this democracy and strengthen it for all our people and save it from a right wing dictatorship.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

You can follow Wajahat Ali's writing on Substack. The handle is The Left Hook. He's also co-hosting the top-rated Democracy-ish podcast with Danielle Moodie. And of course, Waj’s book, it's titled, Go Back to Where You Came From and Other Helpful Recommendations on How to Become American. Do you have a title for your next book?

WAJAHAT ALI:

I mean, I'm not sure of this, actually. You tell me. Tell me what you think. I have a title. Here's the title. I'm sharing it for the first time. The Big Inshallah.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love it. I love it, yeah. Lean into it. Let's do it. Inshallah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not the inshallah that means, probably not But the inshallah that means yes!

WAJAHAT ALI:

And not the inshallah of my dad. Are we going to Toys R Us? Yeah, Inshallah. No, it's the inshallah, we're gonna effing win.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I love it. Okay, Waj, just thank you so much for being with us again on The State of Belief.

WAJAHAT ALI:

Thank you so much, sir.