An Unlikely Social Justice Warrior: Muslim Feminist Ani Zonneveld

REV. PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, HOST:

Ani Zonneveld is a multi-talented Malaysian-bornmusician, Grammy-winning songwriter, and passionate activist, who has forged aunique path blending art, faith, and social justice. As the daughter of adiplomat, she was raised at posts in Germany, Egypt and India. After 9/11, Aniturned from a successful music career to confront the growing hate- and fear-fillednarratives around Islam. Of course, her inclusive feminist values didn't alignwith every Muslim community, either. All of which led her to found Muslims forProgressive Values in 2007, an international organization championing LGBTQ+inclusion, gender equality, interfaith marriage, and human rights from a faith-basedperspective.

Ani's fascinating new memoir is titled TheUnlikely Social Justice Warrior: Making My Life Count as a Muslim Feminist,and I am thrilled that it brings her to The State of Belief.

Ani, welcome!

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Hi, Paul, thanks for having me.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

You and I actually go pretty far back. Iremember when I first started at Huffington Post, which was literallydecades ago, we can start saying - yeah, it's weird when your life allows youto start saying decades ago, but a really a long time ago - and you had startedthis great organization, Muslims for Progressive Values. And I remember us havingconversations and you being part of the Huffington Post world and featuringyour work.  Great religion reporter. Sothis is not Johnny-come-lately work for you.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Yeah, and I had a column on Huffington Post.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

So with that opener, our listeners can feelthat we've actually been working alongside one another for a while. Can youtake us back? You have a really fascinating history, and we're so glad thatpeople are going to be able to appreciate it. The Unlikely Social JusticeWarrior: Making My Life Count as a Muslim Feminist. Why unlikely?

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Because I was raised so privileged as adiplomat's daughter. But the privilege was not just in the status, but theprivilege, in my opinion, is the way I was raised. And that is, my parents madesure that I was very conscientious of social issues. And so even though we werepampered, they made sure that we had these educational excursions where we sawhow others suffered because of politics and economics, for example.

And the unlikely part is that my upbringing iswhat anchored me in my values, anchors me and my values. But the unlikely partis because I live in Los Angeles; I was in the music business and I live herein LA. And so I'm privileged. I don't have to do this work. I'm good, right?But my social justice conscience and the way I was raised, that there's no wayI can just  turn a blind eye to a lot of what'sgoing on in our society. So that's why that “unlikely” is…

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Right. And so just getting a little bit moreinto your background. I think sometimes when you write a book like that, somethings start showing up that you're like, oh, right. I'm remembering that. Iremember that moment with my family, or I remember that.

And all of a sudden there seems to be momentsthat are more laden with meaning. What are some of the moments that you canremember? You mentioned being exposed to things that your family made sure youwere aware of. Can you think of particular moments that stood out to you thatyou wanted to make sure to include in your memoir?

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Yes. So here in Los Angeles, for example, a fewyears ago, we partnered with Hindus for Human Rights and other faith-basedorganizations. And we realized that the Dalits - the untouchables in the castesystem - were being discriminated in the workspace by Hindus of the highercastes in the tech industry. And so we had lobbied to get the word “caste”included in the discrimination categories in California law. And for me - I'mnot a Dalit, I'm not a Hindu, I’m a Muslim - but it really resonated for me,because when I was in India, living in India, I used to have my soccer drillswith the gardener’s son, and they were Dalits.

And my mom came up to me and said, hey, honey,you know, I just want you to know that some folks are talking behind your back abouthow as an ambassador’s daughter you shouldn't be playing soccer with the childof a Dalit, who's a Dalit. And I'm like, so, you know, who cares? And my momsaid, no, I'm just telling you how society is. Just carry on with what you'redoing. So so that's some of the example.

And there are other examples about the castesystem that I also write about - I'm writing about in a very visual way toexpress that we were, even as a child, were actively anti-racist. We didn'tknow that; we didn't have that academic term. But that's how we lived our lives.So that's one example.

Another example is that when I was about 12years old, we lived in Cairo. And my dad made arrangements with the Egyptianmilitary escort to go and visit Portside City, which was right by Sinai and theSinai Peninsula. And it was right after the Sinai War with Israel.

And so he took us there just to, like, this iswhat war looks like, kids, you know. And so I see bombed homes and apartmentbuildings sliced, and you can see people's personal belongings and you can hearlandmines being detonated by the military and all of that. And so for me, Idescribed that from a young age, how it is I hate war. And so I'm veryanti-war. I can't watch violence on television. It just makes my stomach turn.So those are some of the upbringing that has really affected the way I work andthink. And yeah, my belief system.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And you know, I think the term for being a Muslimand also being LGBTQ-inclusive, you and I know that that's not that uncommon. Youand I know that out there, that's actually - I don't have the exact statistics,but this is not an uncommon thing. But there's a narrative out there that thosetwo things can't go together. How did that become part of your sense of callingand what you were trying to create with Muslims for Progressive Values, butalso in your own life?

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Well, before I get into that, I just want toacknowledge my heart goes out to the family of Imam Ali, who was the firstopenly gay imam, who passed away last Sunday. so we're really sad about it,because obviously he was very much involved in Muslims for Progressive Values,and contributed a lot to the progressive theology, one that is inclusive ofLGBT Muslims.

For me, after 9/11, when I decided to relearnIslam for myself - because this whole jihad thing, I was like, what the hell isthis thing? I'm born raised Muslim; I've never heard of killing innocent peopleby way of suicide. I mean, it's such a double whammy. It's crazy.

So I decided, well, okay, do I still want to bea Muslim? And it was, so why? And if not, why? Why? I had to have my reasons.And so, as I was relearning this for myself, I realized that it was actuallyreally more egalitarian than even how I was raised, and more inclusive and allthese wonderful things that were erased or not taught to us. You know,obviously, patriarchy had its reasons, right? So it's a constant theme, thispatriarchal and all these traditions. So when I was at that point I was like,well, if it's so egalitarian and inclusive and if there's a Spirit of God inall of us, regardless of whether you're Muslim or not, whether you're straightor gay or trans or what have you, then why are we discriminating on the basis ofreligion, sex, gender identity, what have you.

So for me, if I really, truly want to practicea real Islam, I need to shed any iota of discrimination, of this superiorityover another. Not that I had anyway, because that's not how I was raised, so itwas easier for me. It was easy for me to embrace this inclusive and lovingIslam. That's number one.

And number two - I also write about this in mybook - I had an uncle that lived with us throughout the 16 years plus that welived abroad. And he was my mother's brother and he was our chef. And so hewould cook for us, and he was always feminine. And I didn't know he was gay.And so many decades later, I went to my oldest brother and I asked him straightup, hey, was Uncle Bakar gay? And he was like, you know, big wide smile said,yeah, he was gay. And then it kind of made sense.

A lot of things started making sense afterthat. And so I was raised around my gay uncle not knowing he was gay. And Ialso realize now that there was that invisible wall between us and I nowunderstand why.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, isn't it amazing. But you know what? Youmust have been able to pick up - because your family had him close - you musthave been able to pick up the kind of respect. And maybe you weren't around asmuch casual denigration of LGBTQ people that sometimes, you know, people whodon't think about it. But because your uncle was there, maybe they were lesslikely to do it. And I'm sure your mom must have known at the time.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

And probably it's also like, denying it, ordon't ask, don't tell. But I think, also, he was probably brought along with usfor the 16 plus years as a way to give him something that was meaningful in hislife, because he probably needed it, right? So, you know, I don't actually talkto my mom about these things because she doesn't really like what I'm doing…

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Oh! Say more about that. I mean, because onceyou start being public and, putting all of this into practice and try to talkabout this in a more public way, there are people who are saying, what are youdoing? Keep quiet. So that must have been part of your journey in this wholeeffort.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Yeah. And the thing about it that was strangeis, I am the product ofthe way my parents raised me. And that is inclusive, a nondiscriminatingworldview. I mean, they have never uttered any hate towards anyone. I've neverheard them say anything negative about a group of people, a nationality,ethnicity, what have you. But you know, our Muslim societies have changed, andsince the 80s, it's become very Wahhabi. It's become so draconian and veryintolerant in its teachings. And the Islam I was raised on is very differentfrom the Islam of today.

And so, my mom has become more - I don't callit orthodox because it's not orthodox - it's what I call a more twisted, apatriarchal, tribal interpretation of Islam, based on the Wahhabis and theinfluence of Saudi Arabia, which now obviously has changed by 80 degrees. But,you know, the impact on Muslim societies will linger on for another generation,at least. And that's what I would say: the Saudi colonialism of their Islamic culture on Muslimsocieties. Now, we don't talk in that term because we say colonialism as that Whiteman thing. But no, we were colonized culturally by the Saudi version of Islam -not just Malaysia, but the vast Muslim societies. So that's been theinfluence.

And then my sister is also a graduate ofAl-Azhar University, and she studied Sharia law. And so coming from that schoolof thought, it's very rigid and it's orthodoxy intolerant. And so that has beenthe influence, in addition to cultural influence, that's been the thetheological influence in my family. So my family has shifted to the right, andI have shifted to a more egalitarian worldview. I stayed in the egalitarianworldview, let's put it that way.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

But I think the way you can tell it is that youstayed true to the way you were raised. The Islam in which you were raised. It'sbeen interesting. This is not in any way an endorsement, but I live in New YorkCity, and the mayoral race has been interesting, with a Muslim candidate. Andit's been kind of amazing to watch him navigate the identity as a Muslim, butthen  talking about trans rights, talkingabout a full egalitarian worldview. And I think that's very confusing for somepeople who want to actually pin something on him. and that it's confusing toMuslims and non-Muslims alike, who are used to being able to understand theplaybook of Islam in America, right? And he's bringing some really interestingthings.

And I think how he and Brad Lander have beencreating coalition, and there was just an amazing video of both of them in thein the Pride parade with flags and dancing around and having a blast and beingunapologetic for everything that they are. And I just think that that's what Imeant by there's a lot of Muslims out there.

One, there's a lot of LGBTQ Muslims. Peoplethink even in Christianity they're like, well, you can't be Christian and gay.I'm just like, well, I mean, look around. But also, I'm wondering if you havenoticed that navigation. And also is there something generational that, thatyou've recognized over the years. I'm curious how you're sensing how yourmessage is landing today in America, especially in this moment, with the MAGAeffort at domination.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Yeah. Now, well, according to Pew, they did astudy. They were doing a study of American Muslims over the span of ten years.They asked the same questions in 2007, 2013 and 2017. And on the issue of LGBTrights, it went in favor of LGBTQ rights over the ten year span, from 27% to52% in favor of LGBTQ rights.

And these are Muslims that they interviewed whoidentified as Muslims, who were mosque-goers. so was very interesting. Butobviously, now the numbers are much higher - and it is also generational. Soyou talk about Mamdani, but let me give you a little bit of - and I write aboutthis extensively, I have a chapter on LGBTQ rights, even. And it is reallyabout putting the spotlight on the hypocrisy of the Muslim religious leaders inAmerica and how, when Trump won, when Trump, the first time around, was in power,was in office, the conservative Muslim mosques and leaders started redefiningthemselves as progressive. And so they started using the human rights language.We are egalitarian. We support LGBTQ rights. We support women's rights. It'sall just a cover so that the progressive left would come to their defense andprotect them. And, you know, paint over the walls that were spray painted withugly messages that just really stuck up from Muslim rights during Trump I.

You had the Muslim ban - and I received myshare of threats from the Trump fans. So then it was Biden. During Biden's term,midway, they decided to do a 180 degree pivot and say, oh, we apologize. Wehave sinned. You know, it's wrong to be gay and Muslim. And they did this wholeposition statement that was really so ugly. And because they felt safe to comeout and come back into their true homophobic stance. I'm talking about, like,150 Muslim religious leaders - or claim to be leaders and claim, also, to havethe authority to speak for all Muslims, which is bogus. So that was in 2023.And then when that statement came out, the political right, the Christian righttook notice of, oh, we've got allies here. So then they started courting theMuslim right. So I define them as a Muslim right.

And then October 7th happened and then all theseend time Islamophobic statements came popping back up. And then I was saying,oh, I guess this reminded the Muslim right about how Islamophobic the Christianright and the political right is. Hopefully that'll be the end to thatrelationship.

But then came 2024. They started courting theMuslim right aggressively. And obviously they won some of them over. And someof the imams advocated for the congregants to vote for Trump on the basis ofsupporting Palestine, supposedly. Because of the issue with Gaza. So that'skind of like the the whiplash of the Muslim right. You know, it's notprincipled. It's just hypocrisy.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And, you know, you're absolutely right that theChristian right, especially the Christian right legal movement said, Oh, okay.It's one thing if we bring something, let's get the Muslims to bring it, forinstance. And, Mahmoud. You know, that would have landed different hadit been the Christian right. But Muslims, you know, one of the things we weretrying to say with Mahmoud v. Taylor, which was the case where Muslimfamilies were encouraged, frankly, by right wing Christian legal organizations,to file a complaint about being exposed at all to LGBTQ stories. They weren'tpro-LGBTQ stories. They just were stories that had LGBTQ people in them,normalizing the existence of LGBTQ people.

And the day of oral arguments, I stood up withMaggie Siddiqi, who you may know, and we just both said, this is not an either-or.I was like, you know, as a gay parent, I want my kids to know about Islam. Iwant them to know that there's being studied side by side with Muslims. We canbe together. And you don't have to agree with everything that everybody else...But we are in a democracy where we hopefully can. And so anyway, it'sheartbreaking to see that alliance. It's like the interfaith of the right.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

So there is the multiracial right. It's themultiracial, political right, because it's not just Muslims; it's also Hindus,you know, the Hindutva, etc., etc. And there's also the Israeli lobbyists andthe Zionists and the Christian right. So that's one camp. But I have to saybefore the Christian law firms really encouraging the Muslims, it reallystarted in Maryland. And so we were talking to the chair of the MontgomeryCounty, the council chair, about how to address this, because it popped up onmy radar and people were calling me, how do we address this without seeminglybeing anti-Muslim and so on and so forth.

And then the one thing that was also sharedwith me were WhatsApp messages in these groups about how CAIR was saying, oh,we're going to take this all the way to the Supreme Court, when they lost thethe case in Maryland itself. And, you know, folks need to understand the reasonwhy we have the Muslim girl with the hijab dancing with her friends. This is inthe Maryland public school curriculum. The reason why we have Pride puppy. It'sbecause gay kids were being bullied. It's because Muslim kids were beingbullied after 9/11. We don't want any of that. So we should really beencouraging each other. You know, being exposed to each other's cultures andtraditions and so on with no prejudice. And if we can't have that in the publicschool system, then what the hell? I mean, go to your Christian school, go toyour Muslim school. Leave the rest of us alone.

So I wrote an op-ed on for Religion News Serviceabout this, and I said, this is a terrible - if we lose this case - is aterrible precedent. And what they also did was even though the case at theSupreme Court was called Mahmoud vs. Taylor, they also included someChristian families and Jewish families to win over the Supreme Court judges. Butthe thing about it is that this is a slippery slope because, you know, therecould be a group of parents, like, you know what? We don't want pictures of Blackkids in our, you know, teaching about that. Or any subject matter.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Or Muslim, you know, Muslim that offends our,like, Christian background. We would rather not have our kids exposed to thisreligion. It's like, oh, okay. So we're going to stop having anyacknowledgement of the diversity of America in our public schools. It's reallya slippery slope is exactly right. It's terrible. And what a teacher issupposed to do.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

And our society in America is so segmentedalready thanks to the media and the channels and what things that are filteredfor us. The only thing left was our public schools’ curriculum.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

It's part of a movement, as you know, becausewe have the public schools and then we also have the libraries; and thelibraries are also getting attacked - and by the way, Muslim stories, there'speople who are just like, get those out of there. So we have to be verycareful. You know, of course, LGBT, Black stories, all of those are the firstchallenge. Muslims are not far behind. And Jewish stories, too. So it is aslippery slope.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

You know, what I found most hypocritical isthat these Muslim families and everyone backing them up had an issue with LGBTstories, but did not have an issue with Muslim stories. I mean, howhypocritical is that?

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Exactly. And when I stood with Maggie in frontof the Supreme Court, I was just like, I want to hear stories. We want to heareach other's stories, and that's all we have.

But speaking of stories, I want to turn tosomething that we haven't talked about yet. Let's talk about music. Can we talkabout music and how music is part of your life? Because music, for me, was theway, frankly, that I became a minister. It's been my avenue to the divine. Somuch of my life has been about music, and I have to say, until I saw this book,I was like, she's a Grammy winner. What? Tell me about how music first appearedin your life and the role it continues to play in undergirding everything youdo.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Thank you. I was exposed to music as long as Ican remember, so that's a long time. And my dad was the DJ of the house, believeit or not. You know, he was a strict dad six days out of the week, and thencame Sunday. He was Mr. DJ in his sarong and his white singlet. And you know, Iwould be immersed in all kinds of music: opera, traditional Malay music,nationalistic songs from Malaysia because we just had our independence. And mydad played a role in that, you know? So I was really raised with that in my blood.And so there's obviously the Jacksons, the Osmonds, Petula Clark, LouisArmstrong. The whole spectrum.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

That's so instructive. Like, there's not oneplace it goes to. All we've been talking about, frankly, that there's somethingto gain from so many places. Why not yourself?

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Exactly. So that was my dad. And so I give himcredit for that. And the thing about it is that I realized that when I waslistening to music, and then when I bought my own 45, you know - I don't knowif you remember that. So I would spin my own 45 or whatever was my favoriterecord, and I would listen to it over and like 50 times, just that one song.And I would listen to all the arrangement, all the production, not so much onthe lyrics, but the melody and how the melody was arranged or the music wasarranged around the melody, you know, etc. so I paid a lot of attention to thatfrom a young age.

And then at five years old, my parents put mein piano classes. So I've been classically trained since I was five. And my momwould always say to my dad, if we're traveling somewhere and then all of asudden, you know, you can't find Ani - just look for the closest music store.And that's where she's at, the record store. That's where we'll find her. Sothat's kind of my reputation. And so music was very consequential in my life.

And then after I graduated from college inIllinois, I studied economics and political science, I kept my promise to myparents. So then I said to that, okay, I kept my promise. And I want to do whatI want to do. I want to do music. I'm moving to LA instead of going back toMalaysia and joining the Foreign Service. So my parents, okay, you know, you'reon your own. Good luck.

So I struggled. Obviously, I didn't know anyonein the industry. I didn't really understand how the industry worked. I don'tknow how it works, still, and I was a real fish out of water because in thediplomatic and how I was raised, we had etiquette, we had protocol, we hadmanners.

In the music business. Oh my God. It was likedog-eat-dog world. I hate the industry. I just love music. I hate the industry.But fortunately for me, I started working with some really awesome people. AndI was also doing more of the production work, the arrangements. I was doingmore of what they call the guy thing. You know, girls were supposed to do thelyrics and melody and sing, and guys were doing all the production and thearrangement and the tech stuff, which was where I was doing.

So I didn't fit in in that way, as well. So itwas a very sexist industry, very racist industry at that time. Probably not asmuch now. And then you had the different cliques: you had the Jewish group, youhad the Black group, you had Latino, you had the Asian group. But I was notthat kind of Asian. I was Southeast Asia, not Korean origin. You know, I justdidn't fit in, so I was excluded. And discriminated and yeah, I had a reallyhard time.

But I started working with some amazing people.And Keb Mo, this contemporary blues artist, was a friend of mine for a longtime. And when he made it big, he pulled me in on projects. And so when youcontribute a song on a project that wins a Grammy, then you become a Grammy-certifiedsongwriter. So you get a certification, you don't get that trophy. So just to clarify.

And to stay on the theme of music, with Muslimsfor Progressive Values, onething that's really void in American society, Muslim society, is music. In ourfaith tradition and from wherever we came from, from Malaysia, women sang andwe had spiritual songs. Same in the Arab world. Turkey. Sufi. Everyone.Everyone from where we came from always had a music tradition in ourIslamic culture. Somehowwe've lost it all when we came to the United States. So it's been stripped offof all its fun stuff. And so whatever is musical is in the tradition andin the language of wherever we came from. And so now, over the years, I've created a catalog ofIslamic spiritual songs, in English, as a way to create an American Muslim tradition.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Well, it is incredible. My husband wrote a bookon Rumi. and so for seven years there was a lot of travel, including to Syriaand Turkey. And I remember, just, the music was so important. And you wouldhear just incredible music. And I remember we were going to Damascus. We weredriving in this big sun, and  I'm goingto mispronounce her name, but Khartoum Alum, it was an Egyptian singer.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Umm Kulthum.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

She was, I mean, like 20 times the Beatles. Imean, people absolutely lost their minds when she would sing - and for goodreason. And it is so important that we not strip our religious traditions. AndI'm not singling out, I think that there's an impulse among some folks who wantto be pure that the first to go, one, are women voices, and two, musicalvoices. And all the culture that surrounded the beautiful parts of the culture.And so I'm really feeling what you're saying, and I think we miss so much whenwe strip these voices that elevate us. I mean, you can't talk aboutspirituality without talking about music. I'm sorry.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

I completely agree. And so let me share onestory. One of the impetus for starting Muslims for Progressive Values for mewas because, after 9/11, I had written and produced an Islamic pop CD. Andbeing from Malaysia, which is a Muslim-majority culture, it's like music, womensinging. There's nothing taboo about it. And then, lo and behold, I had no ideawhat I was wading into here in the United States, that none of the Muslimretail stores would sell my CD because I was a female singer, number one. Andnumber two, because I used all the musical instrumentation. And supposedly thatis forbidden because Prophet Muhammad only had the percussion. And I'm like,what the hell is this? So I'm like, okay, I'm done with you guys. I left themosque. And that's how MPV… That was one of those, you know, like, my anger.How dare you censor, you know, the female voice? that was number one.

And number two is that God is the most - thisis my philosophy - God is the most creative entity. Period. And upon creatingus as human beings, it’s the Spirit of God blown into the womb. So we all havethat creative spirit in us. There's nothing more creative than singing and yourvoice and that spiritual connection with music through that singing voice.That's why we have the Azaan, the call for prayer, and the recitation in theQuran. When I do the recitation in Arabic, there's something in me that wakesup, right? So to really censor that is what we would say is to harden the humanheart.

And when you harden the human heart is when thecontrol, the patriarchy, misogynistic, the homophobic, all this dogma takesover - because you have lost that empathy and the compassion which is in yourheart. And that's why every opening of the Quran except for one is “BismillahRahim,” in the name of God, the most compassionate, the most merciful. And theword “Rahim” in Arabic means “womb,” which is the most nurturing, the mostprotective, and the most compassionate space for any human being, or any animalfor that matter. So that's the definition of God.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

And inherently female.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Lo and behold, and yet we call God a “he.”Seriously.

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

Right. the book is The Unlikely SocialJustice Warrior: Making My Life Count as a Muslim Feminist. I'm feelinglike you're less and less unlikely all the time. The longer I listen to you, itfeels like you're very, very likely. How would you like people to engage thisbook? It feels like some will be Muslims who are looking for this kind oftestimony, this kind of voice to give them their own sense of agency. Otherswill be non-Muslims who would love to hear this kind of voice, also, becauseall traditions, by the way, are wrestling with patriarchy. There's not one thatdoesn't. But how do you imagine people interacting with your book?

ANI ZONNEVELD:

I amlooking at this from the perspective of social justice and human rights. So itdoesn't matter whether you're a person of faith, Muslim or not, or even secularor atheists, because there is value in utilizing a rights affirming language inadvancing our common cause, you know, our common good. And so I really link a lot of stories in the book. So it's notlinear. So I really go back and forth. You know, I'm talking about colonialismin Malaysia and comparing it to my experience in Burundi and how the peoplethere were treated by the Belgians. So I really connect a lot of dots.

But most importantly, I think that it'simportant for people, for especially the young folks, because the publisher isfocused on distributing in universities and colleges and there's questions atthe end of the book about what exercises to do in order for you to learn betterabout certain subject matters. But I really want the younger folks to reallyhave a long term strategy that anger is good, but use your anger in aconstructive way and not in a destructive way, and also to use your anger tofuel longevity, to fuel sustainability, your advocacy in a long term goal. Notthis, you know, chop everybody's knees off, and to look at the world from theprism of, you need to go where people are at and you need to win people over.And that's hard to do when you're super angry and when you hate another group.

And we're having this problem, also, within theprogressive groups, whether Muslim or not, when it comes to what Israel isdoing to the Palestinians. And there's this, you know, blanket statement aboutIsrael in general and so on and so forth. But there are Israelis who arefighting the cause from within. And so we have to work with groups of peoplewho share our values, regardless of what they are. and so that's where I'mhoping that people will get: well, what is the common denominator, that threadthat binds you to a particular person that you otherwise do not agree with. Andhow do you bring them along? How do you bring others along, based on thatshared sliver of shared values?

PAUL RAUSHENBUSH:

I think that is a great message for right now,because as you know, we're never going to get to the total purity of everyoneagreeing on everything. There’s no such thing.

This idea of values. And can we work togetheron on certain things? Can we come together? And I think the big movements thathave been successful have really tried to incorporate as many people aspossible to come together and recognize that we're not exactly on the same page,sometimes, but but if we're willing to show up with one another, and if we'rewilling to move forward with one another, that can be courage. And so I justreally appreciate that as a theme.

I think this is such an important book. I thinkit allows people to maybe see themselves in a in a narrative that they thought,Oh, I'm so weird. No one is possibly like me. Well, you know what? Actually,there's a lot of us weirdos out there, who are inspired by music and inspiredby all kinds of different ways of coming together and who have had lifeexperiences that opened us up. You know, I don't think we're not doing like theKeep Austin Weird kind of thing, but the idea of, can we find one another andbe with one another?

I think it's just a beautiful book. TheUnlikely Social Justice Warrior: Making My Life Count as a Muslim Feminist,I just love this memoir. I love the fact that you're writing it now, after allthese years of working so hard. And I just want to thank you so much forjoining me on The State of Belief, and for all of our listeners I say, thankyou.

ANI ZONNEVELD:

Thank you, Paul. Thank you.

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